Have We Ever Seen Tony So Defeated?

I keep thinking about this one aspect of this episode. First, when he is hauled out of bed and paraded down his driveway in his bathrobe. We then see him stuck in jail with some guy taking a dump behind him.

Then, when he loses the fight to Bobby - just the way he "resigns" from the fight, if you will - he's done. He knows he was beat and beat well. He can't get up and try one more time. I don't know that we have ever seen Tony so out of the fight like that. Even when he was injured, he had enough in him to take it to Perry the bodyguard. Even after Uncle June shot him, he was able to crawl to the phone and call 911 so he could live. But after this fight, as he lay on the floor, a solo green monopoly house stuck to his cheek - he was thoroughly beaten.

I have to wonder what this might suggest for the rest of these episodes. Will that be the way he confronts his issues going forward? Is he truly beaten now? It's just very strange to see Tony so unable (or unwilling) to fight back. He'll try it through manipulation, sure...but in simply pure strength...did the shooting really take that much out of him?
"Leave the gun...take the cannoli." - Clemenza

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Re: Have We Ever Seen Tony So Defeated?

Well, he looked pretty whipped when Carmella was feeding him ice chips at the hospital, but I think you're on to something. And, you know, we keep waiting for Tony to be "punished" for his lifestyle in this series, and that's generally been described as a) jail b) death c) death of family member.

Maybe what you're getting at is the worst punishment of all -- to simply waste away, to lose your physical power at the same time you lose your actual power. We've already had a template for this: Uncle Junior.

Time. It's the one enemy you can't whack.

Re: Have We Ever Seen Tony So Defeated?

My take was that he was enough of an adult and smart enough to know that there was just no point in trying to struggle on. Anything he wanted to do to Bobby, he could do in time. There was no rush. Patience is a virtue and it usually belongs to adults.

I also kept thinking that deep everyone's subconcious was the notion that no matter what, "you never raise your hands to a boss!" By rights, Bobby has to die. The only way he won't die is if Tony decides to give him a pass and if all four people keep it a secret. I'm guessing that if any one of the four says anything about this beef, Bobby will be a dead man.

So, I guess my thinking is that Tony wasn't defeated at all. He was just taking his time to decide how best to handle things. I mean, even if Bobby had killed Tony, Tony would still not be defeated. Bobby would be a dead man. Don't you think?

Do you remember how Bobby ran out of the house? I'm assuming that he ran out in terror - fearing for his life. I guess you just never raise your hands to a boss.
Time. It's the one enemy you can't whack.

Remember that epi of STTNG where three people got frozen in pods and woke up a few hundred years later in outer space? Well, I guess that's not within the realm of possibility and may never be. But if we are going to be speculating about possible ends to the series. How about Tony and Carm and the kids freezing themselves and lauching their pods (together with their assault rifles and off short bank accounts) into outer space and waiting for a few hundered years in an effort to try and defeat time. If you has oodles of money - like Tony - wouldn't you want to try something like that? What would you have to lose? Except of course, if you are AJ. He would probably want to slip the guys an extra few thousand to wake him up a hundred years after the others - just for a measure of extra protection.

Re: Have We Ever Seen Tony So Defeated?

I was just commenting in Avellino's Michael Corleone thread about the closeup shots of Tony on the docks when he was sitting there alone, brooding about the fight. They were great shots, mostly because Gandolfini can say so much with his face. And the weary defeat, the resignation you mention, DH, was on full display. He was possibly even thinking of ways to retaliate, which is what Janice apparently felt he was doing. But the dominant feeling I got was just one of sorrow, of feeling his own age, vulnerability, and mortality.

I think the shooting did take a lot out of him both physically and emotionally, and despite the fact that it sounded like a rationalization on Tony's part, the outcome of the fight might well have been different before the shooting. But looking at your question less in terms of the physical and more in terms of the psychological/emotional, yes, I think we probably have seen him this defeated before, maybe even moreso, back at the time of Isabella.

He was unable then to even get out of bed most of the time, was not grooming himself, was balking at even having his clothes washed, would not spend any time with his crew or family, and pretty much was sucked into the blackhole of deep depression. He was even suggesting then that he might kill himself.

As I'm writing this, it occurs to me that perhaps that's what Chase has meant all along when he's said for the last few years that the ending he has in mind would "close a circle" or "bring things full circle". The series started with Tony on the precipice of a crippling depression. Maybe he's heading back towards that ledge, perhaps with no way back.
Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

Re: Have We Ever Seen Tony So Defeated?

this all reminds me a lot of so often in the sopranos quoted (by Sil and Pussy) line from the godfather:
"Every time i think im out, they pull me back in."
first the AJ-like guy(even sniffing cocaine like AJ) who finds his gun and pulls him into a conflict with the law.(i mean, the guy must know that he is playing with his life when he says the gun was dropped by Tony Soprano).
then Carmella who pulls him when he had Bobby pinned nicely to the wall (he was winning until carmella went in imho) and pulls him into a big loss, and he cant be on the loser side, or he ll go down totally.
while i dont remember the context in which the original line in the godfather was spoken, here it is his family that pulls him back in, comes down to the thesis that in his job you probably cant have a happy family life and success in that kind of job.

also, tony has lost a lot of respect all over. not only does some random guy just accuse him of dropping the gun with the hollow point ammo, also when bobby comes home after killing the guy there is already another family sitting at the house with janice.after getting beat up by bobby the sopranos have already been replaced.a proper kick in the butt.
and bobby has now the final moments of the episode with the wonderful music, the family, the lake and the sun in the background.tony is some nasty guy back in NJ.

Re: Have We Ever Seen Tony So Defeated?

Tony wasn't biding his time or even just giving up. He got his ass waxed, that's all. Bobby is bigger and stronger and had a reason to kick Tony's ass. Tony didn't know he was in a fight until Bobby had already landed a good shot.

Bobby was just as drunk as Tony but he was angry. That last shot rang Tony's chimes. When you take a hard enough shot, your brain hits the inside of your skull and you do hear a bell ring. That's where the expression comes from, "rang my chimes". Ask anybody who's taken a shot like that. Tony deserved the beating. He was deliberately baiting his sister and it took him by surprise that Bobby would defend her.

Tony is a bully. He finally got some of what he had coming for his whole life. I liked that scene best of anything in the whole series.
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