I haven't read much talk about one part of Tony's dream and I thought I would bring it up. I think it is important in the discussion of Tony's intentions regarding Witness Protection.

When Tony first realizes that he has someone elses identity he is about to regester for a conference. That conference is with some military/government types and Tony is an optics (sight? witness?) salesman who can't get in because of an identity crisis. Later you see the government people leaving and Tony has lost his opportunity to sell his optics to the government because he wasn't able to work out his identity issues in time.

This seems pretty straightforward in dealing with the Tony turning government witness theory. I am just not certain if the dream is telling Tony that the ship has sailed on witness protection or if it is working as a cautionary tale to get his psyche in order to do what needs to be done. Either way, I wanted to throw this out there for peoples thoughts.

</p>

That's a very interesting interpretation of that sequence, Byss. Food for thought, definitely.

Also, I was intrigued by the lack of an Artie Bucco presence in Tony's dream. As we saw in "The Test Dream," Artie seems to serve as Tony's boatman or guide. Looking back I figured we'd see some form of that again in this episode.



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge ... Bananas</A> at: 3/20/06 9:32 am

I think Tony needs to come to terms with who he is in the coma before he comes out of it. Maybe the dream sharpens his resolve to be what he is. His "un-Tonylike" sympathy for Uncle Junior got him shot. He is what he is and like Tony B normal life isn't an option in reality. The life protrayed in the coma of a normal life is not what he thinks it is idealistically. Being a nobody is no fun, maybe something "mobesque" will happen in the dream and trigger his recovery....He has already commited his first crime will it lead to others and will it draw him back to reality.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge ... Filed38</A> at: 3/20/06 10:23 am

Just had a thought on the whole 'patio furniture' theme - the link with Tony's comment in therapy about selling patio furtinture is obviously apparenty and eveident yet we also had the episode, i think in Season4, where Tony and Carm are pulled over and written up by the black police officer for speeding and after a word in the assemblyman's ear gets him transferred from his post...and he ends up selling.......patio furniture...upon which Tony discovers on a totally fluke visit to buy some type of pipeing.

Whilst originally patrionisingly trivial and playful with the ex policeman, joking on how a nude statue/water feature would constitute indecent exposure, we saw this tone change, almost to unprecedented levels for Tony in the sense that he, personally, went to lengths to have the move undone and the policeman reinstated and then on being told that this wouldnt happen, saw him personally visit the patio store to give the guy some money (camoflauged as a delivery fee for getting an ornament to in house in one piece) of which the ex-cop refuses with an strong,resilient, implicit look and then the episode ends on this note with Tony walking away, hence imprinting this in the mind of the viewer as something indeed rather significant, perhaps in light of 'Join The Club' as someone not wanting any connection to O.C (demonstrated by refusing Tony's money gesture)....


Perhaps im just reading to much into this having some significance to 'Join The Club' in light of the 'patio furniture' theme of the show, yet i would appreciate everyones views


Giuseppe Soprano

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I took Cosa Mesa to equal Cosa Nostra. His mob life was burning to the ground.

Another item that nobody has mentioned. It seemed like he really really wanted to see the speaker of the conference, which he ultimately missed out on. The speaker was a general of some sort, w/ an Italian name. When he was walking out, they showed him. From all of Tony's love of the History Channel, maybe somehow this speaker symbolized him or his ultimate hero in some way.

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Cosa mesa: my case. Not ours.

Mesa: the tables are turned. Now he gets to see his other life.

Is that what was promised as Tony's trip to the west coast?
If it is, IMO this is the biggest greatest symbol is the setting: the west coast- where the sun hides. Or falls down or... gets under the ground...

The hovering helicopters is a indubitable sign for an LA(the city of angels, even?) setting.






</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge ... >wizdog</A> at: 3/20/06 11:29 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>When Tony first realizes that he has someone elses identity he is about to regester for a conference. That conference is with some military/government types and Tony is an optics (sight? witness?) salesman who can't get in because of an identity crisis. Later you see the government people leaving and Tony has lost his opportunity to sell his optics to the government because he wasn't able to work out his identity issues in time.<hr></blockquote>

Very good thought there, byss. I too wondered what the meaning was to the convention having a military element/speaker and to the "optics" part as well. Your theory makes a lot of sense.

I'm going on memory here, but what was signified by the sign in the convention hallway? Here's how it read:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Western Div.
Mil Spec '06<hr></blockquote>

It also featured what appeared to be an icon for a space satellite.

When I first saw the sign, I was thinking "Western Division." Perhaps it stands instead for "Western Divide", since the conference was in California, Finnerty was from Arizona, and since so many relocated people in the WPP are supposedly placed in the large states west of the Rockies (the "great divide").

The satellite seems to suggest close surveillance, presumably optical surveillance since optics are what Tony was there to sell.

Both of these would further support a witness protection element to the conference.

No one has commented on the meaning of Finnerty. Any thoughts on my previous suppositions re Finnerty as God?

-- Solar heating (God as creator of the sun and author of light, "the way, the truth, and the light".)

-- Kevin Finnerty or Infinity, the alpha and omega.

-- No contact information; he's never seen, yet had to be at the bar at the exact same moment Tony was there in order to switch brief cases. Tony registers in his name at the "Omni" (God is "omnipotent", "ominpresent" but intangible, not seen).

-- The monks were looking frustradedly for him too. (Religious leaders are as lost as the rest of us, seeking the same answers.) The monks also slapped him. (Tony has always felt alienated by religion and by the religious establishment.)

-- Tony tells his wife that if he could somehow find a Bhudist temple and "get a word in edgewise", "they might lead him to Finnerty." But at this point that's just too much trouble because all he wants to do is go home. (He would like to find and believe in God but he doubts his ability to find him on his own and the credibility of religious "authority" to help him.)

Thoughts, anyone?

</p>

Also, it is important to mention that by putting it briefly,
buddhism is about letting everything go, (aka leaving behind the mob-test dream!!) and by this finding nirvana...

Buddhist are also non-violent, they would never raise a hand onto anyone...


We must not also forget that dream symbolism is very important for the buddhist, their shamans vision are always being questioned.
Remeber Kundun. To see the end, which is getting near...

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge ... >wizdog</A> at: 3/20/06 11:48 am

The Star-Ledger had a bit on the dream sequence:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>IT'S NOT a dream. It's Purgatory.

[...]

Here Tony's stuck in Orange County, quite possibly the most personality-free corner of the world, with no way to leave (a k a Purgatory). On one end of town is a shining beacon (Heaven), on the other, a raging forest fire (Hell). Over and over, he stops to assess the worth of his own life, asking, "Who am I? Where am I going?"

Then he steals the identity (sin) of Kevin Finnerty -- a heating salesman who lives in one of the hottest states of the union (Arizona) -- checks into another hotel, and falls down a red staircase, at which point he learns he has Alzheimer's (eternal damnation). And while Carmela's busy in the real world telling him he's not going to Hell, Tony's in Purgatory debating whether to tell his wife this is exactly the fate he has in store. <hr></blockquote>

</p>

<span style="color:blue;">Moved from another thread:</span>

phishin4me


Civilian
Posts: 6
Posted: 3/20/06 11:43 am
Is Tony in hell?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if this has been covered in another thread already.

There has been lots of discussion of hell by religious. Some say it is fire and brimstone, being poked by little demons with pitchforks while floating in a sea of fire, you know, the "traditional" view of hell. Others say it is mearly you being someone/somewhere that you don't want to be for eternity (or infinity) So maybe Tony is in hell already? I know he is not dead, but maybe he is braindead (although I guess that would have been mentioned since they can determine this through tests)?

While I agree about the points made about him envisioning life as a "civilian" and not wanting to go back to "the life", this is just another thought I'd like to explore.

When they were splitting up, Carmella told Tony that he is going to hell (I know she said he is not in this episode but bear with me please). In his "dream world" Tony is basically a peon with no power and no respect.

When He loses his ID he trys to get a break from the girl at the table to get into the conference. Normally he would have gotten what he wanted, but not here. Same with when he went back to the hotel to re-check in. Sorry buddy, can't do it. He can't get on a plane to go home and he can't even pick up money that his wife wants to wire him. Then when he finds out that he has Alzheimers he makes a comment about not being in control or being lost (sorry I can't remember his exact quote) These all show a lack of power and control.

When he goes back to the bar and asks the bartender if he remembers him, he doesn't. Everyone knows Tony Soprano, but not in this world. Then when he finally gets checked into his hotel he gets slapped by the monk. Now this is a huge sign of disrespect that Tony Soprano would never stand for and would get someone killed. However, he had to take it and even got knocked over by the bellman in the process. Then he gets turned down by the woman that he meets in the bar. Again, this wouldn not happen to Tony Soprano. These show a lack of respect towards him.

The last thing that is greatly important to him is his family, and he can't get back to them. And when he finally does the Alzheimers will make him forget who they are eventually.

I think that the spotlights and the light off on the horizon are symbolic of heaven. Another though on "traditional" hell is that the worst part is being able to see heaven and know what you are missing out on. That is supposed to be the ultimate torture in hell.

I know there is probably more to support this but this is all I cna think of at the moment. Hopefully someone will find this interesting besides me!

</p>