Re: Tony's "offering up" Melfi to Artie

I toyed with the notion of starting the bastard daughter of Tony's Potential Change - A Continuing Theme (sorry if I'm missing an important 'announcement' or update regarding the rather significant omission of said forefather) as I'm pretty sure the absence of a thread of this nature cannot be attributed to chance alone (ie - the thread was moved last week even before Live Free or Die aired; I'm set to write about a substantial 'change' within Tony almost 3 days after Luxury Lounge airs and still the recurring, pivotal topic hasn't been subpoenaed to appear post Live Free or Die; I can't understand this and can't put it down solely to negligence therefore my reasons for not adopting the little bastard here must arise from a suspicion that there was an ulterior motive in leaving the thread behind in the first place - that and I don't want to get a row (oh, and I like this one as well :-).


(By the way: Please don't move this now, okay:-)

Here Tony points Artie in the direction of someone he feels can offer a form of assistance to his friend in need. He knows Artie's 'history' and senses what a troubled Artie is capable of with regards to considering solutions to matters like this sensibly.
The parallels with Everybody Hurts are unmistakable here and I actually see the accomplishment of Luxury Lounge in the maturing of themes first laid out in that particular episode.

Suicide and guilt loom threateningly over Everybody Hurts. Here Tony first learns of Gloria's self-annihilation and prevents a repeat performance of this by getting help to Artie before he can unknowingly emulate this to the full.
When Tony confirms Gloria's death, the first person he charges at is Melfi. He blames her for not being able to stop this then directs the charge at himself. Melfi then helps him understand that Gloria was a very troubled person even before she met him.

Tony himself knows how the relationship really ended and questions whether or not he could have been more committed to helping Gloria with the pain he now acknowledges she was experiencing at that time. Deep down, I think Tony feels responsible for being the one who finally pushed her over the edge. He never quite says this out loud though and still attributes some of that blame or failure to help, with Melfi. Even now, he is still quick to point-out that he isn't (on the surface at-least) entirely satisfied with the benefits that therapy claims to offer.

So why would he refer a potential "fucking suicide" to a system (and in-part, a person) he has little faith in when it comes to past history regarding such matters? (as well as in other significant areas.) Between them, Melfi & Tony have 'clocked-up' two suicides now and if Tony never thought to consider his 'role' in the first one (S2, ep.1, Melfi's offscreen patient), then surely he must ask himself what good, if any, Melfi can administer here?

One interpretation of this is that Tony is finally coming round to reason. He's starting to think there are indeed solutions to problems that do not always involve going off at the deep end. Consider the options, accept the truth, verbalise the problem and think your way out of it. He's also feeling good about recent therapy therefore may genuinely feel that Melfi can offer help to his friend here.

Another way I look at it is that Tony now values Melfi's help more than ever. More than the last five seasons combined, he now feels that the help and advice she offers is substantial with regards to how he actually confronts his own problems.
However he construes that advice and employs it within his everyday life, he is becoming more accepting of what she says as being completely relevant and closer to the truth than he could ever hope to get to without her help.

Or, the one I much prefer, here Tony finally accepts some form of responsibility for the death of another human-being and signals possible regret regarding the loss of a life by this gesture to Artie.
By proposing Melfi as a possible means of salvation for Artie, he is saying that, in as much as him distinguishing that blame cannot be attributed anywhere else other than the self (nobody made Artie take the pills; Gloria put the rope around her own neck; Tony's mother didn't love him in the way he wanted but she didn't make him kill anybody etc., so that's a 'positive'), Melfi can help Artie because the only person responsible for that particular death (Gloria), was Gloria herself - yet, in Tony's eyes, assisted by the fact that he didn't love her and disregarded her and ultimately pushed her to this.

Here he clears Melfi of all blame. She didn't kill Gloria and he knows it. He didn't kill her either, but he feels that he is more responsible than Melfi. Or at-least I'd like to think that him acknowledging Melfi's positive influence is more than a newfound love of his therapy sessions and that by doing this, he is saying if he actually took the time to listen to what Gloria was trying to tell him, she might still be alive today.
He may also be saying that he is fully aware that any form of help he can offer Artie would be pretty redundant compared to the aid of someone like Melfi therefore saying that he knows her way (listening, being receptive) is the true way - a significant indication of change.

For possibly all of the reasons above (and I'm looking for substantial back-up on this - if not, I'll have to go home and rethink my life:-), and if it still stands up to repeated viewing, for me, Tony's "offering up" must be regarded as the most 'significant' change thus far.

Poster Avellino notes a connection with this scene and the Buddhist monks from the NDE. I have tried and tried again to connect them to Tony's waking life somehow, but cannot come up with anything solid enough to post on. Anything that I really like or think is in any way close to their true intent, that is.

One of the monks slaps Tony and tells him to lose his arrogance; later, another monk tells Tony he must accept responsibility for something Tony claims was not of his doing; in Calling All Cars, Melfi tells Tony that Gloria's significance in the dream-car concerns his unfulfilled desire to 'make something right' with Carmela regarding Gloria (and Ralph as it turns out.) We also have the significance of the rosary-beads united with the 'back' mirror here.

I can link the monks with Gloria; I can link his desire to lose any arrogance surrounding the death of Gloria and acceptance that he was in-part to blame; and I can also link the significance of the crucifix as 'mirror image' for what Tony wants Carmela (and himself) to see - at-least, the desire to repent for past crimes. He wants both himself and Carmela to perhaps look at each other through a Christian perspective - remorse, confession, repentance and absolution.


Artie can't 'slap' Tony in this scene, his right hand is out of order. Relate this to the scene in the NDE and I wonder if this is blatant symbolism that there will be no need for a slap here as Tony has finally 'lost his arrogance' (regarding his part in the death of at least one person) - Tony might not know it yet, but by offering Melfi to his friend, he may have made the greatest, most important gesture regarding any ambition to change.

My only 'problem' with a 'better' Tony has to do with him and how he truly values life, human life, and considers the lives he has taken. If 'this' is what I think it is, then I can't applaud Chase & Co. enough for the way they're possibly beginning to allude to this.


Re: Tony's "offering up" Melfi to Artie

I had often wondered who the monks represented in the NDE.

Reading your post, it is so obvious they represent Gloria. I had wondered if they represented Melfi. But Gloria is much more accurate.

Thank you for solving a mystery that had really perplexed me.

I didn't spend much time reading your post and I apologize for that. I didn't have the time. But I hope to give it more time later. It certainly deserves that.


Re: Tony's "offering up" Melfi to Artie

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm pretty sure the absence of a thread of this nature cannot be attributed to chance alone<hr></blockquote>

Actually it is totally attributable to chance. I can't recall if I moved the thread once, but I know other mods have moved it before. I have been content to let it be bumped from episode forum to episode forum, since we can presume evidence of Tony's change or regression will appear week to week.

I didn't move it this week because Tony was featured so minimally that, frankly, it didn't occur to me to move it. There was indeed important evidence of "new Tony" from Luxury Lounge in how he related to Artie, but that became subsumed within this thread and others.

My personal opinion, which I've not discussed with the other mods, is that the "Tony Changing" thread should go in Family Business to stay rather than be bumped week to week to the new ep forums. But somehow the reverse got established as the precedent, and I didn't over-rule that since there are some benefits to that strategy (namely convenience, since it is something we expect to revisit with new evidence and analyses from week to week.) Its final repose will certainly be in the Family Business forum, however. So if you feel that thread is the better place to put this reply, by all means add it there and delete this one (or put a simple link to the other thread in its place). The thread is certainly not dead. I'll come to a decision soon about whether to move it weekly or just put it in Family Business to stay.


Re: Tony's "offering up" Melfi to Artie

Yes, I moved it last week but did not simply due to the same reasons Fly did not - there seemed little reason given Tony's small role in the episode. I think we should go ahead and move it to Family business myself (or perhaps more appropriately, The Kitchen Sink as his change is reflected not just within the Family but also the "Family"), however I will leave that to Fly's choice to move it when she sees fit.

However, if the posts above are directed towards Tony's change rather than the actual thread title, I would certainly move your words to the appropriate thread rather than drag this thread off topic. And from my skimming of them, they seem quite appropriate here as they deal with Arte's relationship with Tony - a very valuable discussion topic, to be sure.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF= ... >Detective Hunt</A> at: 4/27/06 9:35 am

Re: Tony's "offering up" Melfi to Artie

On a more responsive note towards the above, I think you might be onto something CT, but I would argue that Artie does indeed "slap" Tony in that he finds Tony's suggestion laughable (it's a verbal slap, and actually one of many in this episode.) He says something to the effect of "I'm the one that needs therapy?" This suggests that Artie sees what Tony is and Tony's wrongs or troubles need far more reflection than his own. Further, it is somewhat born out at the end of the episode as we see him draw back to his father's "words" - his recipes - and utilize them to refind himself as he cooks with joy once again.

I hesitate to follow this with what naturally would follow in such thinking because it may, in fact, belong in the actual change thread, but I will place it here anyway - I don't think Tony's truly changed that much at all. I see that he thinks he has (shown primarily with his newfound love of the "go around with pity" phrase), and there are some moments that suggest he has found a new ability to dialogue - not flying off the handle and seeming to reason rather than simply react, but I think you hit the nail on the head in discussing how Tony values life. And if he truly does, it seems something is still amiss as he goes forward with the Rusty hit. And the juxtaposition between how Artie now handles his depression/frustration and how Tony has thus far should be looked at. But that will require more episodes to see where both finally end up.

Somewhat disjointed thoughts, I admit, but I'm at work at present and that's the best I can come up with.<img src= ALT=";)">

</p>Edited by: <A HREF= ... >Detective Hunt</A> at: 4/27/06 10:05 am

Re: Tony's "offering up" Melfi to Artie

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So why would he refer a potential "fucking suicide" to a system (and in-part, a person) he has little faith in when it comes to past history regarding such matters?<hr></blockquote>

You put more stock into the sincerity of Tony's season 4 indictment of Melfi's competence than I do. Put the scene in context.

Season 4 represented the nadir of Tony's therapy, largely because Tony himself was still so unprepared to admit that he really WANTED to change in fundamental ways and was certainly unprepared to do the difficult work of actually changing. It's no coincidence that the episode where he quits therapy is the same episode where he has a dream that is completely about character change, his subconscious, unexpressed desire for it, and the high price of suffering or loss that must be paid in order to achieve it. Melfi flatly puts the question to him, "You're no longer interested in changing, in finding a way out?" He takes a long, thoughtful pause and answers, "I guess not." He simply couldn't sign on for the price of change at that time.

Amid this frustration that therapy was failing to provide a magic, painless, quick fix to his own problems, he gets the news about Gloria and realizes Melfi has kept the secret of her suicide from him. His reaction was typical Tony, lashing out in rage and anger at someone else, inflicting pain on someone else, to distract himself from his own pain over the news. He used a dubious betrayal of trust by Melfi (her failing to apprise him of the death) as an excuse to attack her, knowing he could hurt her by characterizing her as an incompetent who was only interested in getting money from her patients.

I think the great balance of Tony's behavior towards and statements about Melfi in the years before and since this confrontation show that neither sentiment was genuine on his part. In the very pilot episode, he comes back to her office, even after "concluding" that the prozac is the reason for his improved attitude, all supposedly to tell her he won't need to see her anymore. She sees through this and, after informing him that the medication couldn't possibly be responsible for the improvement in that time frame, coaxes him to share the real reason for his visit. He relates the bird dream, clearly unloading a lot of repressed anxiety and fear. Later he parrots Melfi's "hope comes in many forms" and tells Artie that "talking helps".

He stays with the therapy well beyond his initial inclinations and finally realizes in the season 1 finale how prescient Melfi was about his mother and the whole assassination plot. Before ordering her out of town, he thanks her for "being a good doctor" to him, the kind of accolade Tony seemed most unlikely to dole out to a shrink at season's beginning.

His belief not only that Melfi could help him but that psychotherapy generally could help him continues in season 2 when he sees the male shrink and, after his rejection, hunts Melfi down in the coffee shop (one of my favorite scenes in the series, BTW). He was clearly missing and in need of someone who could really listen to him and found out the hard way that listening is a rare talent (e.g., Hesh's self-absorption when Tony kept trying to make him a de facto shrink).

Season 3 was arguably the season where Tony gained the most insight from therapy, from meat as an occasional trigger for panic attacks to the pursuit of women like Gloria as a means to recreate his relationship with Livia. Not surprisingly, Tony took it as a hurtful, personal rejection or betrayal when Melfi then broached the subject of sending him to a behavior modification specialist instead. He had developed a real dependence upon her.

But he was unwilling to do anything with the new insight in season 4, was unwilling to build upon it with candor about even more important aspects of his life and feelings. So the therapy stalled and he became, for a time, quite disillusioned with it.

It only took a few months separation from Carmela to bring him back, though. (Actually, he nearly came back a few MINUTES after the last Whitecaps fight but chickened out.) And season 5 featured arguably the most pivotal therapy scene in the series: when Tony cured his own panic attack in-session by simply telling the truth about something from his past that he'd lied to others and to himself about for many years. His comparison of this act to bodily excretion showed his growing appreciation for the fact that simply talking about these kinds of matters with another person (i.e., "therapy") is a vital process in achieving psychological health. I expect it cemented his belief that, no matter how much time he and Melfi spend shooting the shit, flirting, and spinning their wheels, something every now and then happens that is truly beneficial to him.

Even when he left therapy in season 4 at his most disillusioned, he reminded Melfi that she "saved his life in the beginning", a pretty solid acknowledgement of her value for patients near the edge, so to speak. So I guess I just can't accept the central premise of your post, which is that Tony has come to some brand new acceptance of the value of Melfi or of therapy generally. That acceptance has been implicit and growing all along, else he would not have remained in therapy for so many years and after so many thousands of dollars.


Re: Tony's "offering up" Melfi to Artie

I'd follow up on that sentiment, Fly, in stating that if anything, Tony seems to value those thoughts that immediately assist in his work - dealing with Junior in season one, dealing with Tony B in season five, and just recently, acting "as if" before his beatdown of Perry in order to show his men he still has strength. There are many more on top of this.

I've always thought of Melfi as Tony's consigliare, whether she realizes it or not. In some ways, that may be more of what keeps bringing him back. He has grown to depend on her for his business just as much as for his mental health. And further, he can question her in ways he can never do with Sil because he recognizes that his indecisiveness or "pussy ass weakness" hurt his role as boss.


Re: Tony's "offering up" Melfi to Artie

Fly's contention (or effort at make-over) and propensity to refer certain pieces of evidence as being immiscible with true context of use regarding the foundations of one's alleged thoughts on a Tony at odds with the succor that therapy provides, is highly appreciated and warmly welcomed as the infrastructure that makes a board like this a pleasure to be a part of.

Great thoughts are one thing, but when we start tautologizing others out of context in-order to confute a basic premise that we misinterpret (for whatever reasons) as being in conflict with our own calculation, it serves to spotlight perhaps an inherent impulse to lay waste to 'great thoughts' considered latent (as must surely be regarded as the case) for reasons other than the benefit of principal dissection regarding our objective here therefore endangering what was once considered incisively penetrative observation (ie - great thoughts)

Since this seems to be in-vogue at the moment:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So I guess I just can't accept the central premise of your post, which is that Tony has come to some brand new acceptance of the value of Melfi or of therapy generally. <hr></blockquote>

Hint: That wasn't my 'central premise', and if you knew what it was you could have just said: 'I think your summary is flawed in-that Tony isn't experiencing true guilt and acceptance of blame over the death of another (Gloria) as his offering of Melfi to Artie here isn't significant in the sense that he doesn't finally takes sole responsibility for her death (over Melfi) by clearing her of all wrongdoing as she was never in the frame in the first place - ie, Everything you said regarding Tony's view of Melfi's assistance throughout the seasons or, perhaps you could have assumed I've actually watched more than one or two of the episodes contained therein and refrained from posting a pointless summary (pointless only in relation to not being relative to the matter at hand) regarding Tony and his dallying with treatment and instead considered the true function of my post.

Fly, I choose to refrain from emaciating an entire post dedicated to proving a line or two from you as being completely contrary to what I consider to be the case here. Instead, I will break some rules and, as concisely as I can, will maintain your swaying deviation off topic and confront your goading that I haven't put the scene (Artie/Tony) in context.

You opened with:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You put more stock into the sincerity of Tony's season 4 indictment of Melfi's competence than I do. <hr></blockquote>

I opened with:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Here Tony points Artie in the direction of someone he feels can offer a form of assistance to his friend in need. <hr></blockquote>

Why would he offer Artie (his friend) help from someone he regards as incompetent? Did you miss my preliminary derivation (line of reasoning to show how a conclusion follows logically from accepted propositions) fastener?

I followed my first paragraph (and ended my second) with:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Melfi then helps him understand that Gloria was a very troubled person even before she met him.<hr></blockquote>

Surely it's obvious that I consider Tony's initial 'charge' at Melfi (assume I've watched this episode) as a combination of feelings of perfidiousness, projection, denial et-al, but that in the end if you like, I infer she appeases the majority of this by helping Tony understand?

(Hint: Melfi and therapy are in Tony's good books here (and this sits nicely with my expansion slightly later that a 'positive' contribution from this session in particular can be found in the way I see Tony being fully aware he didn't literally put the rope around Gloria's neck (yet still accumulating other 'issues' re: this) and that in-general, he could (through therapy) even go on to finally accept that his mother didn't love him in a way he associates with his love for his own offspring therefore could ultimately come to realise his own part in prolonging his suffering and come to eventually make peace and settle with this, before moving on perhaps.)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>When Tony confirms Gloria's death, the first person he charges at is Melfi. He blames her for not being able to stop this then directs the charge at himself.<hr></blockquote>

Let's consider my use of the term 'charge' and 'charges' here for a moment.

Charge [v]: supply with munition; direct into a position for use; demand payment; assign a duty, responsibility or obligation to; [n] a impetuous rush toward someone or something and so on.

My point here is to illustrate how you clearly only regard my use of the word 'charges' in it's most (in my opinion) egregious form if you like, and completely ignore the way I transcend it's initial application and refer it in the singular form to what Tony does to himself (and as I've already pointed-out), with Melfi's help.

Or to put it another way: He steams into her office and unfairly projects, then (AND again, thanks to her) considers his sole part in Gloria's death (and eventually Gloria's own part in this).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So why would he refer a potential "fucking suicide" to a system (and in-part, a person) he has little faith in when it comes to past history regarding such matters?<hr></blockquote>

Read: Such Matters.

Fact: My father has worked as a criminal psychologist (think 'Cracker'; Scottish, but slimmer) for the past fifteen years or so. In his field, the confluence of his ability with that of other specialists not necessarily associated with understanding how the criminal mind works (ie, there's a different shrink for how each of us think) is a serial accompaniment from day to day or week to week.

A colleague of his (and friend of the family) has communicated with many of the people my dad has had the unfortunate pleasure of speaking with first, as well as a vast number of people that dad should never have any cause to engage. I'm unsure exactly how long the man I'm referring to has worked 'in the field' that he is in just now, but if I had to estimate, I'd say at-least ten years or slightly more.

Where I can be sure is in my understanding that no-matter how long this man has been practicing, out of all the people he's tried to help, not one of them has committed suicide or on 'his watch' if you like. Many come into contact with him because they 'want' to end their life and many try again time after time (this is after speaking with him), so it can be construed that he doesn't have some 'secret weapon' or has found a cure for the 'want' of this.

Fact: Melfi (to my knowledge) has TWO suicides 'under her belt' now.

Fact: Being familiar with my father's colleague's ethics, and also being familiar with Jennifer Melfi's moral principles, I can safely say that if both the aforementioned shrinks adhered to their value systems (and I have no reason to think otherwise) yet a patient then goes on to take their own life, blame cannot be attached to either of them as long as they tried their best to prevent this from happening.

Fact: Tony is fully aware (at-least) two of Melfi's patients have taken their own lives (although I don't think he ever mentions this and in such a way.)

Fact: Tony clearly values therapy in many different ways - and also equates a lot of it with 'taking a shit' (now, don't go citing 'that' out of context - I'm fully aware how significant that session was for everyone concerned and, just for the record, I'm simply stating that he still regards a 'lot of it' as bullshit.)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Even when he left therapy in season 4 at his most disillusioned, he reminded Melfi that she "saved his life in the beginning"<hr></blockquote>

That's very true, but has absolutely nothing to do with a suicidal Tony!

Now, going on all that, my point is this: Tony is now worried about Artie. He knows it took quite a long time (and please, any referral here to Tony's acceptance of Melfi by the end of Ep:1 or S1 isn't needed at this point) and plenty of dollars (just to clarify: few years, plenty of sessions) for him to start to appreciate the true benefits of his therapy. As much as he considers how helpful this has been and accepts that certain people CAN 'fall through the net' at the same time, any gesture (and what I effused) to not send Artie to Melfi here would be born out of his understanding that even Melfi couldn't provide an instant safety net for someone on the edge - NOT that he thinks therapy in-general doesn't work.

Melfi couldn't stop two of her patients committing suicide. Whatever Tony's throwing at her at the moment of confrontation regarding Gloria's death and for whatever reason, it is still proof positive that he thinks Melfi was powerless to stop this. This does not mean to say that Tony regards therapy (or Melfi) in-general as a complete waste of time. It simply serves to highlight (this and what happens next) how he could determine that therapy is a drawn out process whereby a person 'on the edge' (suicidal) may experience some form of comfort (ie from Melfi) but that a therapist can only do so much.

In Everybody Hurts and relevant chapters thereafter, it is never made absolutely clear that Tony feels Melfi's role in Gloria's life was a positive or inadequate factor purely regarding the prevention of her self-annihilation.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I think Tony feels responsible for being the one who finally pushed her over the edge. He never quite says this out loud though and still attributes some of that blame or failure to help, with Melfi. <hr></blockquote>

Here I make it clear that I think Tony (deep down) feels responsible, but that by deliberately silencing this he can still afford himself (although wrongly) some form of suspension by accepting that Melfi does indeed 'give her patients everything', yet still recognise that even this isn't enough.

This is where I'm 'surprised' and could have imagined your post to perhaps imply that one of the reasons Tony left therapy at the end of S4 (or another significant reason he was so quick to dismiss it's merits back then) was that in-order for him to properly appease the pain of guilt over Gloria's death, he tried to lay blame elsewhere - at the door of therapy, Melfi's door. By preventing the completion of his correction, he is denouncing everything Melfi has to offer but only after he has to find some sanctuary from what he is feeling regarding the death concerned.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'd like to think that him acknowledging Melfi's positive influence is more than a newfound love of his therapy sessions <hr></blockquote>

Any 'newfound' love here would be similar to his recent conversation with Carmela concerning his feelings about his mother and uncle (again, a byproduct of recent therapy.) Read: he's seeing a result but can attach significance with this to Melfi's help all along. His gesture to Artie, if it was this acknowledgement, would simply be a manifestation of therapy as success, more of the new, more attentive Tony, and not necessarily recognition of anything I hoped was the case here - ie, his own part, and not psychiatry's failings, relating to Gloria's demise.

Read: he doesn't offer Melfi to Artie in Everybody Hurts even after he's made an attempt on his own life, but now, and as Artie clearly hasn't went down the same road yet, therapy (ie - prolonged, as in Tony's case) may seem like a good bet as his friend doesn't quite have the barrel of a gun in his mouth at this point.

In my opinion, 'almost' everything above can be construed from my opening line. You blatantly ignored everything else I said and adjusted a sentence to suit yourself. I can understand I may be 'hard to read' at times, but I really have been trying my best and considered my last post to be my most elementary submission thus far.

Elsewhere recently, another poster quoted me completely out of context but at-least had the sagacity to try and establish my intention by synthesizing points thought relevant throughout the entire post, and not just on the basis of one line or whatever.

It's understandable that we all interpret and etymologize certain things differently, but I'm sure there's significant indication in my post(s) that I don't need a history lesson regarding Tony Soprano and in this entry in particular, one on his feelings regarding Melfi and therapy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everything I say is 'right' and everything everyone else says is 'wrong', I'm also not saying I 'think I know everything' about the show or anything like that. What I am saying is that I expect to be challenged in a way that relates to the true intent of what I proffer, be it a certain post or a body of this.

I would never dream of attacking a poster because I thought a few words in their entry were antonymous to other aspects of that particular post. Instead, I would try and reason with this and come to some studious understanding that if I cannot evaluate something 100%, I should leave it alone or better still, approach the poster to necessitate clarification (as has been asked of me on a few occasions.)

I can't believe I'm actually directing this post at you of all people, the founder of such a great place, and at the moment...... frankly I'm depressed and ashamed.

Okay. C'mon, time for a little levity here, it's a tense situation. <img src= ALT=":lol">

Detective Hunt, Mike, thanks for your thoughts on Artie's rebuke here. I'm way too tired to get into it just now, but your idea here that there is a possible metaphorical 'slap' may just confirm a link with this scene and the one with the monks (in relation to Artie's bandaged hand drawing attention perhaps to a possible 'healing process' concerning the use of violence to create a desired effect or make someone see things your way.)

I'm pleased with your thoughts on Tony and 'life values' and my understanding of this is that it is in someway a response to my thoughts posted in the potential change thread. Good to read and something I hope to follow up on in due course.

EndOfAlice: If you're reading this, the transcript I offered is well underway okay and I haven't forgotten about it or anything.

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