see?thats what most of us predicted 2-3 episodes ago. now we all are turning around and expecting the opposite because the flow of things regarding tony is so slow and the side action is a lot with us having to wait a week between the episodes.i should have waited and watched it all from dvd lol <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> .

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge ... rurusch</A> at: 4/15/06 6:15 am

FOMW, as usual I respect your opinion but see the glass as half empty. In my opinion Tony's brush with death and his seemingly changed outlook are only setting him up for a bigger fall, or at least a more deadly choice between his two families, especially if and when his mob life comes into headlong conflict with his immediate family, e.g. with AJ assassinating Junior.

I generally refuse to make predictions with this show, but I think Chase is building up sympathy and goodwill for Tony only to make it all the more shocking and heartbreaking when he makes a full return to his old ways, probably with his most despicable decision or action yet. I could be completely wrong, but I definitely don't see this plotline ending well.

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FOMW, I recall that post regarding the episode closing on the vomiting. I also agree that is another sign (much like throwing up in the hospital bed in front of Paulie and Christopher) that he can't "stomach," the business. After reading your argument for monogomy you make a lot of good points. It isn't as far fetched as it seemed. I still think he'll break, and give in to temptation at some point before the series end, but that is of course the side of me that believes his whole personality crisis is a part of the Post traumatic Stress Disorder that Melfi mentioned. I think the writers are tricking us into thinking something positive is going to end this series only to be shocked when things start going sour. I'm pulling for Tony's salvation, but I'd put my money against it.

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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>FOMW, I recall that post regarding the episode closing on the vomiting. I also agree that is another sign (much like throwing up in the hospital bed in front of Paulie and Christopher) that he can't "stomach," the business. After reading your argument for monogomy you make a lot of good points. It isn't as far fetched as it seemed. I still think he'll break, and give in to temptation at some point before the series end, but that is of course the side of me that believes his whole personality crisis is a part of the Post traumatic Stress Disorder that Melfi mentioned. I think the writers are tricking us into thinking something positive is going to end this series only to be shocked when things start going sour. I'm pulling for Tony's salvation, but I'd put my money against it.<hr></blockquote>

IMHO: the only way TS or anyone else as deeply connected to the mobster life can find any salvation would be to start cooperating with the Feds, then seek a life in witness protection.

In Tony's case I don't think this will ever happen, as he's the "big fish they are looking to fry." Thus, the series will end with the demise of Mr. Soprano.

--
BobbyBuz
"Everything happens for a reason"</p>

I finally got to see this episode Friday night. It was very rich in what it said and showed. To me, one of the most important themes was that it shows the inner conflict of Tony as to the mob and his family and that of other mobsters' mob lives and their families.
The Feds ending Sack's visit at the wedding was supposed to be a statement to the other mobsters there not to mess with the Feds, that the rules are the rules and they are the real boss, not them. It also probably hardened Sack from talking to the Feds as they 'disrespected' him, shaming him in front of his family and friends. Yet he did deals under the Fed's eyes at the Wedding. I am quite sure that the Feds were aware of that happening and may have had other agents noting what happened, who talked to who, and maybe what was said (maybe bugs at the reception?)
Tony beating up his 'bodyguard' was a message to his crew that he is the boss and is still strong enough to be the boss. He was taking in his own way Melfi's advice. His crew saw him in the Hospital. He showed weakness with the Barone deal. He had the problem at the Church. In the first contact with the crew, they were unconfotable and distant from Tony. Then if you notice just before where he took on the bodyguard, everybody else was doing their own thing and ignoring Tony. That pissed him off big time and he had to do a dramatic attention getter. Of course, he wasn't really physically ready to deal with it, but the post-beating puke session seemed to be worth it to him for now. In the long run, it may still affect him in his mob life.
To me Chris is getting into deep doo-doo playing with those 'Arabs'. I also think he will try to arrange things on the cheap to bump off Rusty (to keep a major piece of the cash for himself for his movie project, drugs, etc) with bad results that will affect him and the NJ/Tony group badly. That may add to the set up the often anticipated 'war' between NY and NJ theis season
Yes, Meadow loves her father unconditionally and is biased in his favor. Note her disgust at the security problems and that Sack had to pay for the security for the day. She was also defending her dad at the Church. Tony has hopes for her, and as a woman, to be able to escape the mob and lead a 'normal' life. That may not happen of course, and who knows what may happen in this series to her.
Carm loves and wants to protect Tony. She also want's to keep her meal ticket and her life. She will only comment from time to time knowing the rules of 'mob wives'.
Vito's situation is a very interesting twist. he leaves the wedding early with his family in tow saying he was 'ill'. To me he was very unconfortable being hetro and wanted to play with his Gay side. Then there is the 'outing' to fellow mobsters at the Gay Leather club. We note from Sil later in the episode that he has no contact with him for 2 days after that cryptic 3 am phone call. To me Vito was considering suricide but didn't do it. With his being 'outed', I wouldn't be surprised of him considering flipping to the Feds. That would make another canary for the Feds, probably one that will die in some way later this season.

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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It also probably hardened Sack from talking to the Feds as they 'disrespected' him, shaming him in front of his family and friends.<hr></blockquote>

For some reason, I keep thinking J Sak still has a major plot twist to throw our way. He's such a big character, and to reduce his plot-line down to just the 'normal' prison stuff would be under-utliizing him. Of course, who knows what that twist may be. Now that he's lost all respect (especially from important guys like Phil), it should be interesting to see how it plays out. Phil will almost surely start running things himself more and more now, but how will that sit with Johnny? Also, I can potentially see Tony using J Sak as a wildcard in the future, since Johnyy's so indebted to him for taking out Rusty. The nastier the Rusty situation gets for Tony (which, for various reasons, will be pretty nasty), the more Johnny owes Tony for taking care of it. Just a thought...

Oh, and (okay, so this is very off topic, but) has anyone else ever noticed the completley fucking badass way J Sak smokes?? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat"> Seriously, just the way he smokes alone makes him look like the baddest, stone-ganster. Lol, I've never smoked, but man, just to want to look that badass is almost enough to make me wanna start <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">
For those that don't know what I'm talking about, the most recent example I can think of is in 'Member's Only', right after Ginny says 'Don't yell at my brother John, he's trying to do right by us.' Pure gangster.... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

We now return to intelligent Sopranos commentary.

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I am exactly focused on that smile in the mirror. That smile and the eyes inside of it. Or rather, the feeling imparted by that look. Where it took him. Where he thought he was. Until, as I said before,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Then he smiled at himself with a very satisfied smile. Then he threw up again. That’s where Chase leaves us, on the vomiting. Not the smile.<hr></blockquote>

Remove Carmela as the character, as we all love her. Fantastically acted, a fantastic and smart creation of complexity. (Remember her investing in the stock market? – I keep waiting for her “investments” to now be worth more than Tony can imagine. She did make those investments a long time ago).

Remove Carmela, and just go with wife. Carmela is his wife. They are catholic. As a thought experiment, I tried to imagine Tony in some sexual scenarios – A. with Carmela. B. with a lover girl or girl from Bing.

B Result: He’s the receiver with the girls, getting what he wants, how he wants it and exactly as he defines it. There is no exchange of person. He is. They are. It is.

A, now switch to Carmela. “Hey Blondie.” Tony is the giver. There is no other way to imagine it – he is in awe of her. loves her. She defines it, but it satisfies him the way nothing else except her can. He wants to give her what she wants – that is what makes him happy here. Makes him exactly him. Just look at the way they lay on their bed together – what happens here in their bed is lovely. Exactly as FOMW put it – this is the real lap dance. Can’t get this on the street for dollars.

But the two do exist together, almost have no correlation. Both are “Tony.” Him doing it once or twice and then giving it up altogether is going to require far more change than we’ve seen so far. Far more than just questioning, or an easy inner turmoil Human nature relaxes into what is easy, and even further into what is familiar. Having other girls is familiar, inconsequential.

Remember the scene where the mistress’s robe catches on fire and then so does she? Take Tony’s reaction and put Carmela in that same situation. night and day.

If Tony were to make a connection between sleeping with other girls and the value of his marriage – well first I’d be shocked. If I were one of his soldiers, I’d wonder if the newfound moral ground was going to threaten his ability to be boss. Cheating and killing have the same disconnect from traditional mores. If you can’t do one, then maybe you can’t do the other.

<ultimately eschew it after one or two encounters>

I would love to see this. But I’m not sure It’s possible. If Chase is able to make this realistic, then he is truly something else.










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One thing that still bothers me about this episode is why the fuck Phil Leotardo was sharing his "estimation of John Sacrimoni as a man" in front of a bunch of Jersey captains. Either it was a brilliant strategic ploy or it was an idiotic airing of a dangerous opinion, and Phil never struck me as being that smart or that stupid.

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edit:nm me, i was looking wrong.

but i think with a broad public agreeing with him, which he probably was sure of and which would have been the case if not for tony, he would have had free hand maybe.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge ... rurusch</A> at: 4/16/06 12:35 pm

Everyone in that circle when Phil was talking was (presumably) in the upper echelon of the NY/NJ mob. The guys from NJ we know were the top guys, and I assume the other guys there were top NY guys (other families, whatever) - so in that audience, he's free to talk openly.
To anyone else, he's not.. that's why he immediately makes the face saving comment to the other guy that passes by (who could've been a civilian, but I thought he was another capo in NY). Phil's smart enough to never make that comment to a less-restricted group until after he's acted on his thoughts...

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