FlyOnMelfisWall wrote:...that Tony taking up arms against that bear was foreshadowing or was otherwise symbolic of him taking up arms against himself. But again, none of that had any "bearing" (couldn't resist ).

LMAO Fly! Whatta a bunch of amazing posts lately. its back on!

I've seen the rest and I have to say, there is a hell of a lot to appreciate about them more than just the commentaries.

Hey DH,

Hope I'm not pushing my luck, but I'd like to ask about what you wrote above. I have recorded most every episode with my own DVD recorder. Thankfully I recorded them all from my HBO station and so I have all the original broadcasts and not the "sanitized" versions (where curse words are all replaced with semi-clean versions). I hate watching the sanitized versions. They are just so awful. After watching the true original episodes, the sanitized versions seem so "fake".

But I did purchase the DVDs from season five and I really enjoyed the commentaries - even though there were only about 5 or 6 commentaries out of the 13 episodes. But, I'd like to ask you just what else you found of value besides the commentaries. Given that one has recorded the original versions of the shows, what does buying the DVD sets give you besides those commentaries?

Don't get me wrong. I'd be willing to buy some of the other seasons just to get the commentaries (although I find it disappointing that they only provide commentaries for a small number of the episodes). I'm just curious what else you find of value in the DVD sets available for sale above and beyond the original broadcast - assuming you were able to record the original broadcast to your own DVD.

Splishak wrote:Hey DH,

Hope I'm not pushing my luck, but I'd like to ask about what you wrote above. I have recorded most every episode with my own DVD recorder. Thankfully I recorded them all from my HBO station and so I have all the original broadcasts and not the "sanitized" versions (where curse words are all replaced with semi-clean versions). I hate watching the sanitized versions. They are just so awful. After watching the true original episodes, the sanitized versions seem so "fake".

But I did purchase the DVDs from season five and I really enjoyed the commentaries - even though there were only about 5 or 6 commentaries out of the 13 episodes. But, I'd like to ask you just what else you found of value besides the commentaries. Given that one has recorded the original versions of the shows, what does buying the DVD sets give you besides those commentaries?

Don't get me wrong. I'd be willing to buy some of the other seasons just to get the commentaries (although I find it disappointing that they only provide commentaries for a small number of the episodes). I'm just curious what else you find of value in the DVD sets available for sale above and beyond the original broadcast - assuming you were able to record the original broadcast to your own DVD.

I am simply referring to the actual episodes themselves. I did not have copies from recording them off of HBO so I had to buy the DVDs if I wanted to watch the episodes again. While I appreciate the commentaries greatly, I bought the sets for the show itself and the commentaries are gravy.

Detective Hunt wrote:As for Finnerty, my own thoughts are certainly documented here along with everyone else's (least I think they are - there wasn't any issue with the transfer was there, Fly?) Just go back to those threads. It's fun reading.

No problems with the transfer of any forum except the moderators' forum. And, of course, there were already extensive losses in the Sopranoland threads I brought over due to the EZ board crash of a few years ago.

There is some annoying stray html code that's visible in most of the transferred posts, but that was unavoidable, unfortunately.

FlyOnMelfisWall wrote:I can't help the feeling that I wasted much too much of my time contemplating elaborate symbolism from episodes like Calling All Cars, Test Dream, Join the Club, and Mayham when, in the end, it was all pretty meaningless. As you implied, if this was where it was going to end all along, I would have been far more satisfied had it done so around the time of Whitecaps, if not before.

I couldn't disagree more. In retrospect, were all the supposed symbolic elements and clues in those episodes meaningless? Well, yeah. But I can't express just how much fun it was to dissect those episodes at the time, regardless of whether or not it all led anywhere. At the time, it was all very exciting, and I would never trade that in for an earlier end to the series. I still open up an arbitrary page in the "Analyzing the Coma Dream" thread from time to time, certain that no matter where I open that discussion up at, I'm sure to find some classic gems of the Chase Lounge. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the week in between Join the Club and Mayham was the most exciting week ever here at The Chase Lounge.

Besides, if the series had ended after Whitecaps, I never would have stumbled across this little corner of the internet I've come to love so much. The night I Googled "Sopranos Forums" and found this site was the night "Member's Only" aired. All the discussions I read after that greatly enhanced the first viewing of all these last episodes, and even if I never feel quite the same about them again, I won't soon forget their initial impact.

You need to look at the entire Season 6 again, there is complete continuity between the final scene and "Join the Club". In fact some of it is so similar it is scary. The final season was about death and the ability to change. Tony had his wake up call. He had his chance to change and avoid hell. In the end he tried but failed. Until Tony "takes responsibility" (the Monks ask him this in Join the Club) the Monks "lawsuit will continue" (he will be damned). Now Chase shot the Holstens Tony POV of the door sequence almost exactly like the Inn at the Oaks Tony POV of the door sequence in Join the Club. There are 5 Tony POV shots of the door in Holstens and 5 Tony POV shots of the door at the Inn at the Oaks. The 5 in Holstens(Tall lady, guy with Usa hat, Carmela, AJ/MOG and the fifth being the blackness where Meadow should be, i.e Tony's dead). There are 5 Tony POV shots of the door in Join the Club. The first 2 shots we see Livia at the door, the other 3 are empty. Shots 1-2 and 4-5 are uninterrupted while all 5 of the Tony POV shots in Holstens are interrupted (i.e other scenes between the bell chime moments) but the general pattern is exactlythe same. We see Tony's face, cut to shot of the door from Tony's POV, cut back to Tony's reaction (exactly like in Holstens). When the 5th shot comes the screen fills with white light and we have a 9 second White-out from Tony's POV. The last shot in Holstens is 10 second blackout from T's POV. Tony survives in Join the Club and Tony dies in MIA. Meadow is the first person he sees when he wakes up and Meadow is the last person he sees when he dies. Meadow saves T's life by calling to him to not go into the Inn and she leads to his death by distracting him for MOG to get a clear shot and by being late she is not sitting in the aisle seat obsructing MOG's shot. So I disagree, I see perfect continuity between the two episodes. All of these things are not coincidences but were carefully thought out by Chase and is NOT a big F-U to the audience.
You want to see redemption for Tony but Chase is to cyncial for that. Once Tony had Adrianna killed any chance for redemption was right out the window. However, Chase DOES have a sense of morality and justice. That is why Tony paid the piper in the end (just like ALL the mafia characters on this show have).He paid for it in the worst way, right in front of his family. It is a brilliant ending. Tony had his chance to reflect on his life when he was shot by Junior. He had a chance to change (end the lawsuit). This time he had NO chance to reflect. Just instantanous death. No second chances. The season opened with the Souls montage about death. It ends with death. Perfect continuity. This story has always been a tragedy and Chase stayed true to that right to the end. Tony's trip to Vegas was foreshadowing his entrance to hell (remember when he is looking at the picture of the devil). Chase DOES have something to say about life and death and redemption. The DP said in the interview that Chase told him not to shoot the Coma-dream as a dream and Chase said to Sepinwall from the Star ledger "Who says it was a dream?". This means that Tony really did visit another place. However in the end Tony is to weak to change and have redemption. Dr.Melfi realized this and tossed him aside. "Morally" Dr. Melfi DID do the right thing.
I have watched the final season again, it is brilliant in its construction. "Members Only" matters, "Join the Club" matters, "Mayham" matters. Chase took 2 years off to put this final season together and it is a masterpiece. To fully "see" this you need to first recognize that Tony is dead. The POV pattern clearly lays out that the blackness is from Tony's POV. Once you see that you will see that there are DOZENS of clues that set this out from the beginning. It is really amazing what Chase has done here. Do you really believe that Chase would give a big F-U to the audience? That does nothing except tarnish his legacy. You need to start "digging" into the material. We miss your thoughtful analysis. Remember what Chase said "It's all there"

richieaprile wrote:You need to look at the entire Season 6 again, there is complete continuity between the final scene and "Join the Club". In fact some of it is so similar it is scary. The final season was about death and the ability to change. Tony had his wake up call. He had his chance to change and avoid hell. In the end he tried but failed. Until Tony "takes responsibility" (the Monks ask him this in Join the Club) the Monks "lawsuit will continue" (he will be damned). Now Chase shot the Holstens Tony POV of the door sequence almost exactly like the Inn at the Oaks Tony POV of the door sequence in Join the Club. There are 5 Tony POV shots of the door in Holstens and 5 Tony POV shots of the door at the Inn at the Oaks. The 5 in Holstens(Tall lady, guy with Usa hat, Carmela, AJ/MOG and the fifth being the blackness where Meadow should be, i.e Tony's dead). There are 5 Tony POV shots of the door in Join the Club. The first 2 shots we see Livia at the door, the other 3 are empty. Shots 1-2 and 4-5 are uninterrupted while all 5 of the Tony POV shots in Holstens are interrupted (i.e other scenes between the bell chime moments) but the general pattern is exactlythe same. We see Tony's face, cut to shot of the door from Tony's POV, cut back to Tony's reaction (exactly like in Holstens). When the 5th shot comes the screen fills with white light and we have a 9 second White-out from Tony's POV. The last shot in Holstens is 10 second blackout from T's POV. Tony survives in Join the Club and Tony dies in MIA. Meadow is the first person he sees when he wakes up and Meadow is the last person he sees when he dies. Meadow saves T's life by calling to him to not go into the Inn and she leads to his death by distracting him for MOG to get a clear shot and by being late she is not sitting in the aisle seat obsructing MOG's shot. So I disagree, I see perfect continuity between the two episodes. All of these things are not coincidences but were carefully thought out by Chase and is NOT a big F-U to the audience.
You want to see redemption for Tony but Chase is to cyncial for that. Once Tony had Adrianna killed any chance for redemption was right out the window. However, Chase DOES have a sense of morality and justice. That is why Tony paid the piper in the end (just like ALL the mafia characters on this show have).He paid for it in the worst way, right in front of his family. It is a brilliant ending. Tony had his chance to reflect on his life when he was shot by Junior. He had a chance to change (end the lawsuit). This time he had NO chance to reflect. Just instantanous death. No second chances. The season opened with the Souls montage about death. It ends with death. Perfect continuity. This story has always been a tragedy and Chase stayed true to that right to the end. Tony's trip to Vegas was foreshadowing his entrance to hell (remember when he is looking at the picture of the devil). Chase DOES have something to say about life and death and redemption. The DP said in the interview that Chase told him not to shoot the Coma-dream as a dream and Chase said to Sepinwall from the Star ledger "Who says it was a dream?". This means that Tony really did visit another place. However in the end Tony is to weak to change and have redemption. Dr.Melfi realized this and tossed him aside. "Morally" Dr. Melfi DID do the right thing.
I have watched the final season again, it is brilliant in its construction. "Members Only" matters, "Join the Club" matters, "Mayham" matters. Chase took 2 years off to put this final season together and it is a masterpiece. To fully "see" this you need to first recognize that Tony is dead. The POV pattern clearly lays out that the blackness is from Tony's POV. Once you see that you will see that there are DOZENS of clues that set this out from the beginning. It is really amazing what Chase has done here. Do you really believe that Chase would give a big F-U to the audience? That does nothing except tarnish his legacy. You need to start "digging" into the material. We miss your thoughtful analysis. Remember what Chase said "It's all there"

chase left it open for interpretation, dude. you really need to accept that.

Rike wrote:chase left it open for interpretation, dude. you really need to accept that.

Rike, I understand (and essentially share) your position re richieaprile's theories about the ending. But the board has already been through some unpleasant divisiveness over this topic, and I'd like to avoid returning to it, especially as everyone has had ample time to calm down. That effort will be helped if we eliminate confrontational or dictatorial phraseology in the discussions and keep the "rolls eyes" icon (which you used in response to the same poster in another thread) under lock and key. Besides, isn't that little yellow smiley to the left so much cuter?

On a related tangent (how's that for a contradiction in terms), has anyone ever explored the psychology of why we use one particular smiley of the same variety over another? For instance, sometimes I use the big green one. Other times I use the yellow. And sometimes I feel the need for the more the more understated . I have, however, never used the . Truly a case for Dr. Melfi to solve.

Well after close to two months i've had a lot of time to reflect on the ending, and i've watched nearly the whole series again since the screen went black (just finished long term parking - oh shit!) and once again it's been very fulfilling. The ending isn't immediately satisfying, it leaves too many questions and doesn't deliver enough on plot. Yet now I think Chase has not copped out but has rather left us with the best and most satisfying conclusion.

Firstly, perhaps i never saw the series the same way as others. I never had a real emotional investment in the characters on this show the way i have with other shows. When i watch 6 feet under, or even shows with much more 2 dimensional characters like 'entourage' or the 'west wing', i get excited and i care for the characters. On the sopranos, i always felt that while they were the most 3 dimensional and interesting characters ever put on screen, it felt like i was watching from a distance, enough to feel emotionally detached. I was fascinated by them, but couldn't truly care for them. Tony was truly a character to study, not to care for. And i was prepared to follow him on that journey with that mentality wherever chase and co wanted to take me.The only major exception was the death of Adrianna, where I was truly shaken. Also, Whitecaps, watching Tony lose the one good thing in his life. There were a few other times as well. But overall i had intellectual investment in seeing Tony change, and the prospect excited me, but in the end his inability to change despite so many triggers is equally appealing. That may be one reason why i am more satisfied with the ending than those who went along the rollercoaster genuinely caring for Tony and believing he could change.

Despite this, the ending for me isn't about the hopelessness of the characters. It isn't Chase being a pessimist, simply saying that either these people, or perhaps all of us, are incapable of great change. In the last ep, he gave us Hunter, the former 'freakshow' who was (apparantly) able to turn her life around. This change didn't just come about by tinkering at the edges, as Tony and other's do from time to time. She had to change her whole lifestyle if she deeply wanted to change who she was. Despite his NDE, Tony was unwilling to change who he was. Sure he can try being conciliatory to Phil, telling him (sincerely, I believe) to enjoy the grandkids, and that there's enough garbage for everyone, but in his business, that mentality cannot hold. He's still trapped in the same orbit as before. If Tony wants to be a good person he needs to renounce everything else that goes with his lifestyle. Same as everyone else in the show, Carm, Vito, the list goes on.

So change for tony, given the life he has built for himself, given the inherent selfishness we have seen in him since the start of the show, was never likely to be complete. It has always been a battle for him and the opposing elements of his character. It could seem like Tony got worse as the show went on, or was it just that we finally got to see more of the ugly side that was always there? Or was it a devolution that went along with the power of being at the top, just circumstance bringing out the worst of him? Yes, he was at his most despicable during 'the final nine', but we also saw him holding AJ by the pool in 'the second coming', we saw him genuinely happy for his daughter and her success, and we saw him holding Sil's hand while his friend lay in a coma. I believe Chase came to trust the audience enough not to hold back on how despicable Tony et al could be, hoping that he had banked enough of our goodwill through showing us Tony's potential for decency in the past.

So as for the ending, whether T lives or dies, he is neither good nor evil. Circumstaces can and will bring both out of him. Necessity motivated him to forget everything else except wanting to take his son's pain away after the suicide attempt, just as he believed it motivated him to kill Adrianna back in LTP. Tony will likely go the rest of his life swaying between the yin and the yang, never permanently becoming either. He has, throughout the series, refused to go deep enough to change. And in watching the series again, yes, it is full of hints that tony could change, but there are far, far more clues that he will always stay the same, and that has been my perverse joy in re-watching the series since the finale. But anyway, my point is that rather than looking at the negative, that Chase is saying these characters are too shallow to change, let's look at the positive of the series. Change takes real commitment. If a superficial prick like Tony had changed for the good (and for real) it would be tantamount to a slap in the face for every person who has struggled hard their whole lives to undergo profound change. Getting out of a bad orbit is possible, but if you just try and change your orbit a little, gravity will pull you back, so you therefore need to undergo a more profound shift in what it is you are orbiting. Change is real, it takes a long time, and it's something to truly be proud of if you can pull it off. And if you stuggle and fail, don't be down on yourself, just trying to change is more than tony ever did.

Sorry, I didnt mean to open up a controversial issue. I also thought by now that it was common knowledge that T probably died. I do think it was left open for interpretation. However, once you actually look at the evidence you see that Chase was practically hitting us over the head with the answer. As someone who thought Tony originaly lived I now laugh at how obvious Chase made it. Chase really requires you to work to see it though. It really is a credit to him though. The whole seeing death through Tony's eyes thing must have taken a lot of thought for Chase to come up with. Never seen a POV pattern used like that before. It really is a credit to his genius. I will miss this show.