How would you grade this episode on a 1-10 scale (10 being the best possible quality)

Total votes: 0

Re: Episode 6.21: Made in America - Grades and General Revie

#472
garthman00 wrote:I think it is the same shirt, and saying it is the key to the whole series is a bit of a reach. However, I think the reason Tony wore that shirt, is due to the resolution he had with Uncle Junior. Kind of a bookend to this season, similar to Christopher's hat from the first episode and then the reappearance of a hat during his death.
It's not the same shirt, but it is similiar.

Update definited list that "Tony is dead"

#473
Hello all, Just wanted to update the definitive "Tony is dead" list. I have put in bold the new clues. These have been gathered all over the web. Thanks for all the great ideas and keep them coming.

This is the definitive thesis that Tony was in fact killed. I have reviewed the entire sixth season:
1)"Anybody who wants to watch it, it's all there,". These are Chase’s words. I believe he is saying that ending is there if you just look for it.
2)Matt Servitto, who played FBI Special Agent Harris, said Chase briefly kept the camera rolling after what amounted to Tony's final moment on screen - and that the extra footage appeared to clearly spell the end for the supreme Soprano.
"[Tony's daughter] Meadow got into the diner, sat down . . . The menacing 'Members Only' jacket-wearing man at the counter was a little bit more in play, and I think she's sitting there with the family kind of all together . . . and all of a sudden, the menacing man gets up, starts walking toward their booth. End of show," Servitto said.
"The scene cut as the [menacing] guy was advancing toward [Tony], as if he was about to shoot Tony. It was, I think, less ambiguous that Tony was going to get shot."
3)Tony walks into the diner. We then get a shot of the middle of the restaurant (the tables) from TONY PERSPECTIVE. We then get a weird cut at Tony now sitting at one of the tables. However, we are now watching Tony from his previous perspective. I believe this is to signify that we will now be watching the events from Tony’s perspective.
4)The pattern then begins:
A)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see a woman walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
B)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see a old man with a USA cap walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
C)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see Carmela walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
D)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see "Members Only Jacket Guy" followed by AJ walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
5) “Members Only” Guy looks over at Tony a couple of times and finally walks past Tony and to the bathroom.
6)Meadow is about to come in. We hear the bell (probably b/c Meadow is about to enter). Following the same pattern, Tony now looks up. The next shot should be him seeing Meadow from his perspective. However, the next shot is total darkness and silence as the music stops. Tony is now dead (probably shot in the back of the head). He sees nothing and hears nothing.
7)There is total blackness for 10 seconds before the credits come on w/ no music. This is unusual for this show as this has never happened before. Chase meant something buy this and I believe it signifies Tony’s death. If it was just a happy ending why not FADE to black, continue the music and immediately go to the credits? No it CUT to black and silence b/c that is all Tony would “See” once he was shot in the head.
8)Logistically it makes sense for “Members Only Guy” to shoot Tony in the back of the head. The bathroom is BEHIND Tony and to his right. He went into the bathroom so he could sneak up on him without Tony seeing.
9)The previous week’s episode ends w/ Tony holding his gun and lying on a bed in his safe house. He then flashes back to the conversation between Tony and Bacala at the lake house in “Sopranos Home Movies”. Bacala asks Tony “You probably don’t hear it when it happens, right?”. Tony did not hear it as the bullet went into the back of his head. We also never heard it b/c from Tony’s perspective he never would have heard it either. Also, note Bacala phrases it as a question-”You probably don’t hear it when it happens, RIGHT?”. Tony can now (theoretically) answer that question. I believe Chase was setting us up the whole time.
10)I believe the show ended from Tony’s POV b/c Chase did not feel the need to end the show with Tony’s brain splattered all over the table while his family screams in horror. Instead, Tony seems at peace eating w/ his family, the only people he really loves, before he dies. The only other real murder off screen of a major character on the show was Adrianna as we only heard the gunshots. I feel Adrianna was an “innocent” (well as close as you can get on this show) and Chase chose not to show it. While Tony is no innocent, he is the protagonist of the show. Millions of fans have wondered what it would be like when and if Tony got whacked. It could never live up to expectations so Chase chose to leave it to our imaginations.

Other more indirect but symbolic clues of Tony’s death in the Sixth season (both parts)
11) The family in that last diner scene all take the onion rings completely in their mouths without biting them first. Is this to symbolize final communion?
12)Tony and Meadow have dinner a few scenes before the diner scene in the last episode. Tony said he wanted to have dinner b/c he felt it would be one of the last times that he would get to have dinner w/ her as she is getting married soon. He was right, she never made it to the diner table before Tony is shot. That WAS the last time he had dinner w/ his daughter.
13)Earlier in “Made in America”. Phil is shot in the head and also never sees it coming. He is also shot right in front of his family, just like Tony.
14)There are many allusions to Tony’s coma dream in the final episode. Just before Tony sees Junior he is raking the leaves in his backyard. He looks up at the trees (which are mostly dead as it is the middle of winter). It appears to be the same shot when Tony views the trees outside of the house in his coma-dream. Tony makes a slight smile and seems at peace. Remember it was Meadows voice from the trees (but actually from Tony’s hospital room) that made Tony come out of his coma instead of joining his cousin in the house w/ all of his dead relatives and friends. Meadow is also the first person he sees (along w/ Carmela) when he wakes up from his coma. Tragically and ironically, Meadow may be the last person he sees before he dies or the sound of the bell w/ presumably Meadow entering distracted him enough that his killer was able to shoot him in the back of the head.
15)In the first episode of the 2nd half of Season 6-“Sopranos Home Movies” Tony is sitting by the dock and looking at the trees (similar to his coma dream) and the water. He seems to be contemplating something (this is the day after his fight w/ Bacala). We then hear a bell. Tony looks over. The next shot is from Tony’s perspective (just like the diner scene) and we see a boat wobbling in the water tied to the dock. Tony looks annoyed. The bell rings again (probably coming from the boat), Tony looks again and appears to have a disturbed look on his face. Then a duck in the water appears to fly away.
16) Silvio also has a similar line similar to Bobby’s. After he witnesses the Gerry Torciano murder in “Stage 5”(Season 6) he tells Tony that “he did not hear a thing” and did not even realize it “until it was over”. Also, although it is not entirely shot from Silvio’s perspective, the murder of Torciano does recall Tony’s possible murder. Remember all we first saw was Sil, the sound cuts off (we hear a low ringing) and scene starts to slow down. Many people thought there was something wrong with their cable (similar to final scene of “Made in America”).
17)The first episode of the sixth season is titled “Members Only”. Tony’s possible killer wears a “Members Only” jacket. Eugene Pontecorvo wore a “Members Only” jacket in that episode which gives the episode it’s title when Vito makes fun of Eugene’s choice of clothes. Eugene commits suicide when Tony would not let Eugene “retire” with his family with the money from his mother’s inheritance. I don’t think this is an accident that Tony’s possible killer wears the same jacket. The actors even look a lot alike (both tall and lanky). Perhaps it is a relative of Eugene’s out for revenge or it is just karmic justice. Also remember from that episode, Eugene’s wife tells Eugene that he should “put a bullet in his (Tony’s) head”. Also Eugene (with his Members Only jacket) kills a man sitting down in a seedy burger joint in that episode. If we would have saw “Members Only jacket” guy kill Tony it would have looked remarkably similar. There are also other clues in this episode (remember the first episode of the sixth season). After Tony is shot by Junior, he calls 911 and then falls flat. We seem him slowly lose consciousness, the scene then fades to black and the credits roll w/ silence. At the end of “Made in America” he is shot in the back of the head and dies instantly and we CUT to black and silence.
18) More Death references from the Godfather: Micheal Corleone kills Soluzzo and the police captian right after he comes out of the bathroom while they are eating. Just before the shooting, Soluzzo says "best veal in the city". Just before Tony is shot by MOG guy (when he comes out of the bathroom) he says "best onion rings in Jersey"
19)Tony eating oranges in "Made in America". Oranges are symbols of death in the Godfather movies
20)The LAST shot of "Members Only" is identical to the opening shot of "Made in America". After Tony is shot by Junior, the last shot is an overhead shot/extreme closeup of T's face as he is lying face down. The opening shot of "Made in America" is the same shot of Tony's face as he wakes up.
21)The design and pattern of the shirt worn by Tony when he is shot in "Members Only" is very similar to the shirt worn by Tony in the final scene of the last episode.
22)The only time that we see someone entering Holsteins BEFORE the bell rings is when MOG enters (The POV pattern in (4) then continues). Chase is telling us PAY ATTENTION TO THIS GUY
23)The last shot of Aj and Carmela is of both of them LOOKING DOWN at their menus. If they had been looking up they may have had a chance to yell or warn Tony before MOG shoots Tony in the back of the head. (Chase really covered all the angles)
24)As MOG gets up from the counter he clearly LOOKS DOWN. He is avoiding eye contact with Tony. He also appears to have a bulge in his left coat pocket which may indicate a gun.
25)Chase has only used silence over the credits in 2 other instances and they both represent DEATH or near death. When Tony is shot by Junior and when Chris is shot in Season 2 and is laying in his hospital bed. We only hear Chris breathing through a respirator (if he was dead we would probably hear nothing, just like when Tony died)
26)The Lincoln references: Tony is a leader just like Lincoln. We have T watching Lincoln on the History Channel, "Lincoln log" sandwiches, and AJ watching the commercial w/ the "Lincoln character.
27)The New York Times article that Chase wanted the "black out" to last 30 seconds and the comments from the HBO rep (who spoke to Chase) that the Bacala quote is a "legitimate" hint of Tony's death.

Edited: 18-27 are the added clues (Cant bold for some reason)

Re: Update definited list that "Tony is dead"

#474
richieaprile wrote:Hello all, Just wanted to update the definitive "Tony is dead" list. I have put in bold the new clues. These have been gathered all over the web. Thanks for all the great ideas and keep them coming.

This is the definitive thesis that Tony was in fact killed. I have reviewed the entire sixth season:
1)"Anybody who wants to watch it, it's all there,". These are Chase’s words. I believe he is saying that ending is there if you just look for it.
2)Matt Servitto, who played FBI Special Agent Harris, said Chase briefly kept the camera rolling after what amounted to Tony's final moment on screen - and that the extra footage appeared to clearly spell the end for the supreme Soprano.
"[Tony's daughter] Meadow got into the diner, sat down . . . The menacing 'Members Only' jacket-wearing man at the counter was a little bit more in play, and I think she's sitting there with the family kind of all together . . . and all of a sudden, the menacing man gets up, starts walking toward their booth. End of show," Servitto said.
"The scene cut as the [menacing] guy was advancing toward [Tony], as if he was about to shoot Tony. It was, I think, less ambiguous that Tony was going to get shot."
3)Tony walks into the diner. We then get a shot of the middle of the restaurant (the tables) from TONY PERSPECTIVE. We then get a weird cut at Tony now sitting at one of the tables. However, we are now watching Tony from his previous perspective. I believe this is to signify that we will now be watching the events from Tony’s perspective.
4)The pattern then begins:
A)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see a woman walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
B)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see a old man with a USA cap walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
C)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see Carmela walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
D)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see "Members Only Jacket Guy" followed by AJ walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
5) “Members Only” Guy looks over at Tony a couple of times and finally walks past Tony and to the bathroom.
6)Meadow is about to come in. We hear the bell (probably b/c Meadow is about to enter). Following the same pattern, Tony now looks up. The next shot should be him seeing Meadow from his perspective. However, the next shot is total darkness and silence as the music stops. Tony is now dead (probably shot in the back of the head). He sees nothing and hears nothing.
7)There is total blackness for 10 seconds before the credits come on w/ no music. This is unusual for this show as this has never happened before. Chase meant something buy this and I believe it signifies Tony’s death. If it was just a happy ending why not FADE to black, continue the music and immediately go to the credits? No it CUT to black and silence b/c that is all Tony would “See” once he was shot in the head.
8)Logistically it makes sense for “Members Only Guy” to shoot Tony in the back of the head. The bathroom is BEHIND Tony and to his right. He went into the bathroom so he could sneak up on him without Tony seeing.
9)The previous week’s episode ends w/ Tony holding his gun and lying on a bed in his safe house. He then flashes back to the conversation between Tony and Bacala at the lake house in “Sopranos Home Movies”. Bacala asks Tony “You probably don’t hear it when it happens, right?”. Tony did not hear it as the bullet went into the back of his head. We also never heard it b/c from Tony’s perspective he never would have heard it either. Also, note Bacala phrases it as a question-”You probably don’t hear it when it happens, RIGHT?”. Tony can now (theoretically) answer that question. I believe Chase was setting us up the whole time.
10)I believe the show ended from Tony’s POV b/c Chase did not feel the need to end the show with Tony’s brain splattered all over the table while his family screams in horror. Instead, Tony seems at peace eating w/ his family, the only people he really loves, before he dies. The only other real murder off screen of a major character on the show was Adrianna as we only heard the gunshots. I feel Adrianna was an “innocent” (well as close as you can get on this show) and Chase chose not to show it. While Tony is no innocent, he is the protagonist of the show. Millions of fans have wondered what it would be like when and if Tony got whacked. It could never live up to expectations so Chase chose to leave it to our imaginations.

Other more indirect but symbolic clues of Tony’s death in the Sixth season (both parts)
11) The family in that last diner scene all take the onion rings completely in their mouths without biting them first. Is this to symbolize final communion?
12)Tony and Meadow have dinner a few scenes before the diner scene in the last episode. Tony said he wanted to have dinner b/c he felt it would be one of the last times that he would get to have dinner w/ her as she is getting married soon. He was right, she never made it to the diner table before Tony is shot. That WAS the last time he had dinner w/ his daughter.
13)Earlier in “Made in America”. Phil is shot in the head and also never sees it coming. He is also shot right in front of his family, just like Tony.
14)There are many allusions to Tony’s coma dream in the final episode. Just before Tony sees Junior he is raking the leaves in his backyard. He looks up at the trees (which are mostly dead as it is the middle of winter). It appears to be the same shot when Tony views the trees outside of the house in his coma-dream. Tony makes a slight smile and seems at peace. Remember it was Meadows voice from the trees (but actually from Tony’s hospital room) that made Tony come out of his coma instead of joining his cousin in the house w/ all of his dead relatives and friends. Meadow is also the first person he sees (along w/ Carmela) when he wakes up from his coma. Tragically and ironically, Meadow may be the last person he sees before he dies or the sound of the bell w/ presumably Meadow entering distracted him enough that his killer was able to shoot him in the back of the head.
15)In the first episode of the 2nd half of Season 6-“Sopranos Home Movies” Tony is sitting by the dock and looking at the trees (similar to his coma dream) and the water. He seems to be contemplating something (this is the day after his fight w/ Bacala). We then hear a bell. Tony looks over. The next shot is from Tony’s perspective (just like the diner scene) and we see a boat wobbling in the water tied to the dock. Tony looks annoyed. The bell rings again (probably coming from the boat), Tony looks again and appears to have a disturbed look on his face. Then a duck in the water appears to fly away.
16) Silvio also has a similar line similar to Bobby’s. After he witnesses the Gerry Torciano murder in “Stage 5”(Season 6) he tells Tony that “he did not hear a thing” and did not even realize it “until it was over”. Also, although it is not entirely shot from Silvio’s perspective, the murder of Torciano does recall Tony’s possible murder. Remember all we first saw was Sil, the sound cuts off (we hear a low ringing) and scene starts to slow down. Many people thought there was something wrong with their cable (similar to final scene of “Made in America”).
17)The first episode of the sixth season is titled “Members Only”. Tony’s possible killer wears a “Members Only” jacket. Eugene Pontecorvo wore a “Members Only” jacket in that episode which gives the episode it’s title when Vito makes fun of Eugene’s choice of clothes. Eugene commits suicide when Tony would not let Eugene “retire” with his family with the money from his mother’s inheritance. I don’t think this is an accident that Tony’s possible killer wears the same jacket. The actors even look a lot alike (both tall and lanky). Perhaps it is a relative of Eugene’s out for revenge or it is just karmic justice. Also remember from that episode, Eugene’s wife tells Eugene that he should “put a bullet in his (Tony’s) head”. Also Eugene (with his Members Only jacket) kills a man sitting down in a seedy burger joint in that episode. If we would have saw “Members Only jacket” guy kill Tony it would have looked remarkably similar. There are also other clues in this episode (remember the first episode of the sixth season). After Tony is shot by Junior, he calls 911 and then falls flat. We seem him slowly lose consciousness, the scene then fades to black and the credits roll w/ silence. At the end of “Made in America” he is shot in the back of the head and dies instantly and we CUT to black and silence.
18) More Death references from the Godfather: Micheal Corleone kills Soluzzo and the police captian right after he comes out of the bathroom while they are eating. Just before the shooting, Soluzzo says "best veal in the city". Just before Tony is shot by MOG guy (when he comes out of the bathroom) he says "best onion rings in Jersey"
19)Tony eating oranges in "Made in America". Oranges are symbols of death in the Godfather movies
20)The LAST shot of "Members Only" is identical to the opening shot of "Made in America". After Tony is shot by Junior, the last shot is an overhead shot/extreme closeup of T's face as he is lying face down. The opening shot of "Made in America" is the same shot of Tony's face as he wakes up.
21)The design and pattern of the shirt worn by Tony when he is shot in "Members Only" is very similar to the shirt worn by Tony in the final scene of the last episode.
22)The only time that we see someone entering Holsteins BEFORE the bell rings is when MOG enters (The POV pattern in (4) then continues). Chase is telling us PAY ATTENTION TO THIS GUY
23)The last shot of Aj and Carmela is of both of them LOOKING DOWN at their menus. If they had been looking up they may have had a chance to yell or warn Tony before MOG shoots Tony in the back of the head. (Chase really covered all the angles)
24)As MOG gets up from the counter he clearly LOOKS DOWN. He is avoiding eye contact with Tony. He also appears to have a bulge in his left coat pocket which may indicate a gun.
25)Chase has only used silence over the credits in 2 other instances and they both represent DEATH or near death. When Tony is shot by Junior and when Chris is shot in Season 2 and is laying in his hospital bed. We only hear Chris breathing through a respirator (if he was dead we would probably hear nothing, just like when Tony died)
26)The Lincoln references: Tony is a leader just like Lincoln. We have T watching Lincoln on the History Channel, "Lincoln log" sandwiches, and AJ watching the commercial w/ the "Lincoln character.
27)The New York Times article that Chase wanted the "black out" to last 30 seconds and the comments from the HBO rep (who spoke to Chase) that the Bacala quote is a "legitimate" hint of Tony's death.

Edited: 18-27 are the added clues (Cant bold for some reason)


Kudos for the painstaking work that must have been. Nice summary.

Re: Episode 6.21: Made in America - Grades and General Revie

#475
I admire your work also Richie.

You have hit on so many references and spelled it out nicely. And there are so many more that also point in that direction.

Not all of us are able to state things so clearly. Thanks for the time you took to write that all out.

People will continue to want to see the ending as they view it. I suspect that in 5 years there will not be any debate about how the series ended.

There is so much to consider and it takes time to go through it. There will always be alternative endings for those who look for them or want them. If that is what they get from it, then it is their vision of the end.

Re: Episode 6.21: Made in America - Grades and General Revie

#476
janicezany wrote:Kinda late with this, but someone (on another e-mail 'forum') sent this link to me last week and pointed out that there are NO onion rings on the menu. (!!)
In the past week many people have gone to Holsten's and ordered Onion Rings. They may not be on the menu, but they are certainly serving them.

I'm sure the demand for them came after the last Soprano's episode. Since the scenes were filmed in March, they probably picked up on the idea of serving onion rings, whether they were on the menu or not.

Re: Episode 6.21: Made in America - Grades and General Revie

#477
This is a pretty good article from the Chicago Tribune this morning (6-19).


by Maureen Ryan

Just when I thought I was out, “The Sopranos” pulls me back in. After more than a week of reading, writing, arguing, theorizing and philosophizing about the show’s endlessly debatable June 10 conclusion – and I love that sort of thing, but the “Sopranos” circuits in my brain were fried by Friday – I feel the need to express one more thought.

David Chase, the creator of the show, should just tell us once and for all whether Tony Soprano died at the end of the finale. Now.
In the only interview Chase has given about the finale, he told the Newark Star-Ledger June 11 that he has “no interest in explaining, defending, reinterpreting, or adding to what is there.” Oh really? Then why is he now trying to telegraph what we’re supposed to think about that ambiguous finale? Chase implied to the Star-Ledger that fans should be clear about what the ending meant. “Anybody who wants to watch it, it’s all there,” Chase said.

If it’s all there, why is Chase sending clues and hints and trying to get us to think a particular way about the ending? In two stories that appeared late last week, the “Tony is dead” believers got some new clues to interpret, courtesy of an HBO spokesman. A pre-finale conversation between Tony and Bobby Bacala about what it would be like to be whacked was a “legitimate” clue, the HBO representative told Reuters. In that conversation with the Mafia boss, Bacala speculated that you probably wouldn't hear anything if you were whacked – which mirrored the silence that abruptly ended the “Sopranos” finale. And the New York Times revealed in a Saturday story that Chase had originally wanted that final silence to last 30 seconds, “It’s certainly plausible to see that as a reference to death,” the HBO spokesman said.

So, let me get this straight: Chase has no interest in explaining the finale, yet he is explaining it -- possibly -- through an intermediary? And in maddeningly inconclusive terms at that? Tony would have a choice expletive for that kind of hypocritical doubletalk. I’ll settle for this: Just tell us if Tony died, Chase.

As part of an effort to urge him to come clean, I’ve prepared a petition at the site Petition Online. If you believe that Chase should tell us whether Tony Sopranos lived or died at the end if the “Sopranos” finale, sign the petition.

Now I’ll spend a few paragraphs trying to deflect at least a few of the hate screeds and angry comments that some of you are no doubt preparing. Of course “The Sopranos” is still the most influential show of all time and one of the all-time great programs, no matter what happened to Tony.

And yes, I can live with ambiguity. I’m familiar with the concept and not necessarily allergic to it. I wasn’t happy to be yanked out of the “Sopranos” world so viciously, but I’d made a sort of peace with it. At least I had until Chase started playing coy and, after saying he wasn’t going to explain the ending, he apparently started making a half-hearted effort to explain the ending.

It’s clear that, whatever he’s said to the contrary, Chase does care what people think of the finale. Though he’s vacationing in France, he’s kept close tabs on the debates over the finale via the Internet, the HBO spokesman has said.

And he did, through the spokesman, have the courtesy to bat down some of the popular but inaccurate rumors out there – the mystery guy in the Members Only jacket in the finale was not related in any way to Phil Leotardo and had never been on the show before, and the two African-American men in the diner were not characters from a previous season with grudges against Tony. So you can stop e-mailing me that theory, thanks.

But by stoking certain speculation about the ending, and in particular helping to fuel the whole “Tony is dead” movement, Chase himself gave an opening to those who want a definitive answer. It looks to me as though he had a particular ending for Tony in mind – one he didn’t fully share with us.

Maybe Chase just couldn’t bring himself to have the last image of the series be Meadow Soprano seeing her father shot to death as she arrived at that New Jersey diner. But if that’s what Chase did, he should come clean. Then again, he may want to make a “Sopranos” movie some day, in which case we might never get an answer, so he can keep his options open.

The fact remains, though, that if Tony did die, Chase has some explaining to do – in a poll on the Watcher site, only about a third of more than 350 respondents said they thought Tony was dead. (A Newsday poll with more than 7,000 responses called the “Sopranos” ending the “worst finale ever,” though clearly many other fans disagree and thought it was genius.)

In any case, by fanning the flames of the debate, the “Sopranos” creator brought this petition on himself. Don’t just throw out bread crumbs of information – cut to the Chase.

Did Tony live or die? Tell us.
Christofuh says: "Tony has big decisions to make, like whether or not to have that third sandwich..." :icon_razz:

Re: Update definited list that "Tony is dead"

#478
richieaprile wrote:Hello all, Just wanted to update the definitive "Tony is dead" list. I have put in bold the new clues. These have been gathered all over the web. Thanks for all the great ideas and keep them coming.

This is the definitive thesis that Tony was in fact killed. I have reviewed the entire sixth season:
1)"Anybody who wants to watch it, it's all there,". These are Chase’s words. I believe he is saying that ending is there if you just look for it.
2)Matt Servitto, who played FBI Special Agent Harris, said Chase briefly kept the camera rolling after what amounted to Tony's final moment on screen - and that the extra footage appeared to clearly spell the end for the supreme Soprano.
"[Tony's daughter] Meadow got into the diner, sat down . . . The menacing 'Members Only' jacket-wearing man at the counter was a little bit more in play, and I think she's sitting there with the family kind of all together . . . and all of a sudden, the menacing man gets up, starts walking toward their booth. End of show," Servitto said.
"The scene cut as the [menacing] guy was advancing toward [Tony], as if he was about to shoot Tony. It was, I think, less ambiguous that Tony was going to get shot."
3)Tony walks into the diner. We then get a shot of the middle of the restaurant (the tables) from TONY PERSPECTIVE. We then get a weird cut at Tony now sitting at one of the tables. However, we are now watching Tony from his previous perspective. I believe this is to signify that we will now be watching the events from Tony’s perspective.
4)The pattern then begins:
A)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see a woman walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
B)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see a old man with a USA cap walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
C)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see Carmela walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
D)We hear a ring, Tony looks up and we see his face, we then see "Members Only Jacket Guy" followed by AJ walk into the diner shot from Tony’s point of view.
5) “Members Only” Guy looks over at Tony a couple of times and finally walks past Tony and to the bathroom.
6)Meadow is about to come in. We hear the bell (probably b/c Meadow is about to enter). Following the same pattern, Tony now looks up. The next shot should be him seeing Meadow from his perspective. However, the next shot is total darkness and silence as the music stops. Tony is now dead (probably shot in the back of the head). He sees nothing and hears nothing.
7)There is total blackness for 10 seconds before the credits come on w/ no music. This is unusual for this show as this has never happened before. Chase meant something buy this and I believe it signifies Tony’s death. If it was just a happy ending why not FADE to black, continue the music and immediately go to the credits? No it CUT to black and silence b/c that is all Tony would “See” once he was shot in the head.
8)Logistically it makes sense for “Members Only Guy” to shoot Tony in the back of the head. The bathroom is BEHIND Tony and to his right. He went into the bathroom so he could sneak up on him without Tony seeing.
9)The previous week’s episode ends w/ Tony holding his gun and lying on a bed in his safe house. He then flashes back to the conversation between Tony and Bacala at the lake house in “Sopranos Home Movies”. Bacala asks Tony “You probably don’t hear it when it happens, right?”. Tony did not hear it as the bullet went into the back of his head. We also never heard it b/c from Tony’s perspective he never would have heard it either. Also, note Bacala phrases it as a question-”You probably don’t hear it when it happens, RIGHT?”. Tony can now (theoretically) answer that question. I believe Chase was setting us up the whole time.
10)I believe the show ended from Tony’s POV b/c Chase did not feel the need to end the show with Tony’s brain splattered all over the table while his family screams in horror. Instead, Tony seems at peace eating w/ his family, the only people he really loves, before he dies. The only other real murder off screen of a major character on the show was Adrianna as we only heard the gunshots. I feel Adrianna was an “innocent” (well as close as you can get on this show) and Chase chose not to show it. While Tony is no innocent, he is the protagonist of the show. Millions of fans have wondered what it would be like when and if Tony got whacked. It could never live up to expectations so Chase chose to leave it to our imaginations.

Other more indirect but symbolic clues of Tony’s death in the Sixth season (both parts)
11) The family in that last diner scene all take the onion rings completely in their mouths without biting them first. Is this to symbolize final communion?
12)Tony and Meadow have dinner a few scenes before the diner scene in the last episode. Tony said he wanted to have dinner b/c he felt it would be one of the last times that he would get to have dinner w/ her as she is getting married soon. He was right, she never made it to the diner table before Tony is shot. That WAS the last time he had dinner w/ his daughter.
13)Earlier in “Made in America”. Phil is shot in the head and also never sees it coming. He is also shot right in front of his family, just like Tony.
14)There are many allusions to Tony’s coma dream in the final episode. Just before Tony sees Junior he is raking the leaves in his backyard. He looks up at the trees (which are mostly dead as it is the middle of winter). It appears to be the same shot when Tony views the trees outside of the house in his coma-dream. Tony makes a slight smile and seems at peace. Remember it was Meadows voice from the trees (but actually from Tony’s hospital room) that made Tony come out of his coma instead of joining his cousin in the house w/ all of his dead relatives and friends. Meadow is also the first person he sees (along w/ Carmela) when he wakes up from his coma. Tragically and ironically, Meadow may be the last person he sees before he dies or the sound of the bell w/ presumably Meadow entering distracted him enough that his killer was able to shoot him in the back of the head.
15)In the first episode of the 2nd half of Season 6-“Sopranos Home Movies” Tony is sitting by the dock and looking at the trees (similar to his coma dream) and the water. He seems to be contemplating something (this is the day after his fight w/ Bacala). We then hear a bell. Tony looks over. The next shot is from Tony’s perspective (just like the diner scene) and we see a boat wobbling in the water tied to the dock. Tony looks annoyed. The bell rings again (probably coming from the boat), Tony looks again and appears to have a disturbed look on his face. Then a duck in the water appears to fly away.
16) Silvio also has a similar line similar to Bobby’s. After he witnesses the Gerry Torciano murder in “Stage 5”(Season 6) he tells Tony that “he did not hear a thing” and did not even realize it “until it was over”. Also, although it is not entirely shot from Silvio’s perspective, the murder of Torciano does recall Tony’s possible murder. Remember all we first saw was Sil, the sound cuts off (we hear a low ringing) and scene starts to slow down. Many people thought there was something wrong with their cable (similar to final scene of “Made in America”).
17)The first episode of the sixth season is titled “Members Only”. Tony’s possible killer wears a “Members Only” jacket. Eugene Pontecorvo wore a “Members Only” jacket in that episode which gives the episode it’s title when Vito makes fun of Eugene’s choice of clothes. Eugene commits suicide when Tony would not let Eugene “retire” with his family with the money from his mother’s inheritance. I don’t think this is an accident that Tony’s possible killer wears the same jacket. The actors even look a lot alike (both tall and lanky). Perhaps it is a relative of Eugene’s out for revenge or it is just karmic justice. Also remember from that episode, Eugene’s wife tells Eugene that he should “put a bullet in his (Tony’s) head”. Also Eugene (with his Members Only jacket) kills a man sitting down in a seedy burger joint in that episode. If we would have saw “Members Only jacket” guy kill Tony it would have looked remarkably similar. There are also other clues in this episode (remember the first episode of the sixth season). After Tony is shot by Junior, he calls 911 and then falls flat. We seem him slowly lose consciousness, the scene then fades to black and the credits roll w/ silence. At the end of “Made in America” he is shot in the back of the head and dies instantly and we CUT to black and silence.
18) More Death references from the Godfather: Micheal Corleone kills Soluzzo and the police captian right after he comes out of the bathroom while they are eating. Just before the shooting, Soluzzo says "best veal in the city". Just before Tony is shot by MOG guy (when he comes out of the bathroom) he says "best onion rings in Jersey"
19)Tony eating oranges in "Made in America". Oranges are symbols of death in the Godfather movies
20)The LAST shot of "Members Only" is identical to the opening shot of "Made in America". After Tony is shot by Junior, the last shot is an overhead shot/extreme closeup of T's face as he is lying face down. The opening shot of "Made in America" is the same shot of Tony's face as he wakes up.
21)The design and pattern of the shirt worn by Tony when he is shot in "Members Only" is very similar to the shirt worn by Tony in the final scene of the last episode.
22)The only time that we see someone entering Holsteins BEFORE the bell rings is when MOG enters (The POV pattern in (4) then continues). Chase is telling us PAY ATTENTION TO THIS GUY
23)The last shot of Aj and Carmela is of both of them LOOKING DOWN at their menus. If they had been looking up they may have had a chance to yell or warn Tony before MOG shoots Tony in the back of the head. (Chase really covered all the angles)
24)As MOG gets up from the counter he clearly LOOKS DOWN. He is avoiding eye contact with Tony. He also appears to have a bulge in his left coat pocket which may indicate a gun.
25)Chase has only used silence over the credits in 2 other instances and they both represent DEATH or near death. When Tony is shot by Junior and when Chris is shot in Season 2 and is laying in his hospital bed. We only hear Chris breathing through a respirator (if he was dead we would probably hear nothing, just like when Tony died)
26)The Lincoln references: Tony is a leader just like Lincoln. We have T watching Lincoln on the History Channel, "Lincoln log" sandwiches, and AJ watching the commercial w/ the "Lincoln character.
27)The New York Times article that Chase wanted the "black out" to last 30 seconds and the comments from the HBO rep (who spoke to Chase) that the Bacala quote is a "legitimate" hint of Tony's death.

Edited: 18-27 are the added clues (Cant bold for some reason)

RichieAprile - do me a favor and please only post messages in one thread rather than double posting. You've posted this in two different places and it really doesn't belong in this particular thread since we have a dedicated thread to discuss the ending. Thanks.

By the by, I can already spot some problems with the list, but I'll save that for when I have more time.:icon_wink: It is exhaustive though, so good work.
"Leave the gun...take the cannoli." - Clemenza

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Re: Episode 6.21: Made in America - Grades and General Revie

#479
peeayebee wrote:It IS Holsten's. http://www.holstens.com/

oops- sorry if i got the spelling wrong- but my main idea/question still holds, because of the play on words- or pronunciation of the two names- still a reversal (full circle?) that can't be accidental:

Anyone have any opinion on that Tony rode around in the Steinholz beverage van, then had onion rings at the Holsteins diner? (Holsten's?)

Maybe kinda boring, but i'm trying to look at some other ideas besides the same ones that keep getting re-hashed a million times about Dead or Alive. However-- i love every one of 'em so keep 'em coming!

Re: Episode 6.21: Made in America - Grades and General Revie

#480
badabellisima wrote:oops- sorry if i got the spelling wrong- but my main idea/question still holds, because of the play on words- or pronunciation of the two names- still a reversal (full circle?) that can't be accidental:

Anyone have any opinion on that Tony rode around in the Steinholz beverage van, then had onion rings at the Holsteins diner? (Holsten's?)

Maybe kinda boring, but i'm trying to look at some other ideas besides the same ones that keep getting re-hashed a million times about Dead or Alive. However-- i love every one of 'em so keep 'em coming!
I like the idea of maybe switching gears towards other parts of the final episode, or even the entire season. Cant think of any at the moment though, lol.

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