Re: Tony's last words to Melfi/Yochelson, Elliot, Melfi and

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Good or not for Melfi, I just cannot get over how unprofessional Elliott was at that dinner party. I mean...totally unethical in the extreme. Were I Melfi, the first thing I'd do after dropping Tony is report Elliott for not following his oath and telling others information that should have stayed within the confines of Melfi's therapy sessions with her doctor.

To be sure, I think Elliott had a legitimate point to make, but the way in which he got that point across was totally wrong.

Oh, and I was so very scared during that scene with Melfi and Tony. We've talked about it for a while and I thought we'd finally get to see how Tony would react when she confronted him. Clearly she did not say those magic words like JT Dolan, but I was truly fearful that she might and then we'd see what Tony would do. Thankfully, he moved on without further confrontation. Phew!
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Re: Tony's last words to Melfi/Yochelson, Elliot, Melfi and

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Thanks for the responses...

Yes, I agree, Krakower, Tony is still lacking in empathy and he has not progressed in this area with Melfi. But the 'study' would have us believe this is because Tony's a criminal or a sociopath and he would not make progress no matter who his therapist was.

I think this is false and Chase on some level knows it. Imagine another therapist, one less vulnerable to Tony's charms and manipulations, one less traumatized and scared herself, one with a much better therapist/supervisor of her own. I believe that therapist could have helped Tony develop empathy by saying the following at various times over the course of the therapy:

"Of course you're depressed, you can't protect your beloved family just like you were not protected by your own parents...you are in a truly impossible spot and always have been...this is enough to depress anyone...and it's also enough to make you rightfully furious...you were set up for this by your parents...they essentially got away with murder, and now you have to pick up the pieces."

"Of course you're involved in criminal activity...this is not because you're bad or a criminal, it's because it was the only choice offered to you by your parents, and once you got in, you couldn't leave...it's not your fault."

"Of course you feel like you can't have empathy or compassion for yourself or others...this kind of feeling was not permitted by your parents or by your current business...the penalty for feeling empathy for a mob boss is often death."

"Of course you feel trapped...what an impossible spot you are in."

"Of course you're afraid to get close to your wife, in your business you could lose her any day."

"Of course you're mad at AJ, he's in the same impossible spot as you are and you can't protect him...he reminds you of yourself and it's too painful so you push him away."

Anyway, my guess is that Chase's own therapy was incomplete and unsatisfying, and the show can be read as his way of saying to his therapist and the mental health profession, "Stop the bullshit intellectual 'studies' and theories and start empathizing with your patients, ALL your patients, rich, poor, in jail and out...if you can do that, maybe there'd be a few less Tony Sopranos in the world." For psychologists to have abandoned 'sociopaths' as unworkable is folly, and my hope (guess?) is that Chase feels the same way. IMHO, we just haven't tried TRULY empathizing with the Tony Sopranos of
the world yet, and until we do, we will all be that much worse off.

Re: Blue Comet Further Suggesting "Football" Heidi

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Well, this is just my opinion, but I've found Chase's "writing" to be horrible the past few episodes. Eda Maria suggested last week that we all read Shakespeare's Richard III; I'd suggest that Chase read Richard III to watch how a genius handles character exposition, narrative, and audience-control. I was quite bothered by Chase's inability to follow-up Tony's descent into evil in Heidi and Kennedy. I thought his allowing Tony to revert, essentially, to action-hero in The Second Coming was a poor decision. I think his having Melfi read a 30-year old study and realize that she hasn't helped Tony at all was not only a cheap way to end the relationship, but also a betrayal of the audience, who had been invited for seven years to think about the relationship between Tony and Melfi. In effect, Chase slammed the door on viewers who had been looking for signs of Tony's "progress" just as Melfi slammed the door on Tony. There isn't any progress, there never was any progress, because sociopaths can't progress. In a larger sense, the lack of control Chase seems to have over his material as this series ends seriously diminishes him in my eyes. As I said last week, I don't expect him to be Shakespeare, but I expect him to be a notch or two above Stephen J Cannell. Oh, well, it seems you can take Chase out of The Rockford Files, but you can't take The Rockford Files out of Chase.

All of this, of course, is just my opinion.

Re: Tony's last words to Melfi/Yochelson, Elliot, Melfi and

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Folks, Kupferberg doesn't "say" or "do" anything except what Chase and his writers put in the script. Melfi didn't "end" the relationship with Tony after reading the study; rather, Chase and his writers HAD Melfi end the relationshipd etc.

I think we need to keep our attention on the decisions that Chase and his writers are making, as they're expressed through the script and the action.

Personally, I don't think it's fair of Chase, as the controller of the script, to end the therapy-plot by having Melfi read a 30-year old study (which would have been available, by the way, when she was in or past med school), and act on it. That Melfi didn't know about the study means that she WASN'T the "good psychologist" Chase claimed she was in the Season I DVD interview. And if Chase's thoughts on sociopathy are being framed by that 30-year old study, then Chase needs to read more himself, and NOT the stuff by Robert Hare on psychopathy (which he had one of the docs at the table mention).

These are the kinds of things that have bothered me the past few episodes: Chase taking the easy way out. He COULD have had Melfi force the issue in any number of ways, and have her response framed in terms of how Tony himself responded to her forcings. He COULD have had the Melfi/Tony relationship contradict the 30-year old study. He COULD have let Melfi lay out all the realizations fans have hoped Tony would come to, and THEN have Tony continue to avoid them or decide to accept them. But any of those would have required more work than the little party-scene, the highlights of the study, and Melfi slamming the door. Since the linchpin of this series has been that Melfi/Tony relationship (it's where the series began, after all), that relationship deserved MORE attention as the series came to an end. Perhaps if Chase hand't wasted so much time on the Vito storyline he'd have had the time to devote to it. But it's Chase's fault that he didn't bring the Melfi/Tony storyline to a satisfactory conclusion, and no one else's.

Re: Tony's last words to Melfi/Yochelson, Elliot, Melfi and

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I never found the whole study thing to be something that a real professional would even be remotely phased by. Why? Because the study that was referred to involves people who were FORCED into therapy and its effect on them following a conviction.

Tony has VOLUNTARILY sought out therapy. What would be his motive to do so other than in seeknig help? The felons that were the subject of the study obviously had an incentive to be something less than honest with their therapists.

That being said, Tony was right. Melfi's act was immoral, especialy in its timing.

Re: Blue Comet Further Suggesting "Football" Heidi

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"I was quite bothered by Chase's inability to follow-up Tony's descent into evil in Heidi and Kennedy."

Descent into evil? He's always been evil.

"I thought his allowing Tony to revert, essentially, to action-hero in The Second Coming was a poor decision."

Disagree. An "action hero" would've kicked down Phil's door and shot up that house and everyone in it. An "action hero" wouldn't have set down his pizza to go mournfully hug his son, he would've told the nurse to go screw and dragged AJ out of there.

"I think his having Melfi read a 30-year old study and realize that she hasn't helped Tony at all was not only a cheap way to end the relationship, but also a betrayal of the audience, who had been invited for seven years to think about the relationship between Tony and Melfi."

It might be a 30-year old study in real life, but it was the first time Melfi's actually read it, apparently. Her shrink and her professional colleagues forced her to re-examine her therapy with Tony. She should have stood her ground, but she didn't, because she's human and not Super Shrink. I don't see that as betraying the audience at all. Apparently some audience members feel cheated because the therapy didn't turn out the way they wanted, but doesn't that happen sometimes with therapy in real life?

"In effect, Chase slammed the door on viewers who had been looking for signs of Tony's "progress" just as Melfi slammed the door on Tony."

Sounds like someone had their expectations shaken up.

Tony'd made some progress over the years, but always took steps back. He wasn't cured. He didn't have the big breakthrough and change into a new person the way a lot of people apparently needed him to.

I'm glad he didn't, because in my view, that would have been predictible and typical of TV and bad writing. The main character is magically redeemed into a good guy, the end. That would have been a big disappointment to me, it's too neat and predictable and typical of TV.

"In a larger sense, the lack of control Chase seems to have over his material as this series ends seriously diminishes him in my eyes."

What lack of control? By things not going the way you anticipated them, that's a lack of control over his material?

Re: Tony's last words to Melfi/Yochelson, Elliot, Melfi and

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I think Melfi has been continually frustrated with therapy with Tony. As someone else mentioned in a previous post, there has been a certain amount of inertia in their recent interactions. There haven't been any significant breakthroughs. In fact, as Carmela mentioned, except for right after Tony was shot, nothing much has seemed to help. And I think a large part of that has to do with his profession. To be a successful mob boss, you have to have elasticity of conscience. You have to be able to compartmentalize things. You have to make the best choice for yourself, your family and your organization, despite how immoral that choice might be. I think that Chase did a very good job of making us hope for some sort of redemption with the Kevin Finnerty dream/coma, but he also brought us back to reality with Tony's inevitable return to crime and indifference.

Dr. Melfi is no fool. I always watch her facial expressions when Tony is lying to her and she never seems duped. I think she knows him well enough to know that her therapy is not helping him. And she has known that for a long time. Like Elliot said (in a very ugly moment!) it's a rescue fantasy. Melfi is attracted to the magnetism of Tony's alpha male personality and she's fascinated by this life of crime that she might never get insight into otherwise. (Dinner guest: "That must be fascinating work!" Exactly. How many therapists get to work with the mob boss of New Jersey?) So she's always been mutually attracted and repelled by him. And to keep him in her life she has clung to the idea that she can actually help him. Maybe she could over time, but I have my doubts. I don't think Tony has the willingness to change. He is in a job where he has to put survival skills and financial interests above everything else. This creates the ultimate selfish human being. And because he is stuck in this life, what interest does he really have in changing? Would a breakthrough do him any good in a war against New York?

At any rate, I completely agree that the way that Dr. Melfi extricated herself from therapy with Tony was extremely unprofessional. However, I think she had to dump him as a client for two reasons. The first is that she feels tricked. She really had a lot of sympathy for him and to find out (whether the study is true or not) that he is just honing his skills of manipulation on her had to be a crushing blow. The second reason is that as a professional, she has to be able to prove in court that upon her introduction to this widely-known study (which details that she is not treating Tony Soprano, but actually aiding him in his criminal acts) that she took the definitive step of ending therapy. Because if she continues to treat him after knowledge of this study she is willfully going against the standard code of conduct and engaging in clearly unethical practices. Which could make her liable for his behavior in some way. But at the very least, there's the possibility of her losing her ability to practice psychiatry.

Re: Tony's last words to Melfi/Yochelson, Elliot, Melfi and

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Perhaps the therapists on this board or those more familiar with the field can shed some light on it but, regardless of the Yochelson study being old, has it been discredited or contradicted by better conducted studies?

What is the point of having Tony reform? This is a show about something very real and very depressing: violent criminals, one in particular. It would feel extremely incongruous to have it end in any kind of uplifting way, wouldn't it? Not to mention unrealistic; a mafia boss finally realizes he's a terrible man and changes his ways? A far more truthful reflection of the world, tragically, is to have Tony unable or unwilling to change his sociopathic ways. I think Chase shares the perspective AJ spouted off on in his therapy session: "How could you not be depressed with everything going on?" With people like Tony Soprano out there? There are so many bullies in this world and the show has done brilliant work of illuminating what drives this particular species of them. I cannot conceive of Chase having Tony redeem himself in any way, shape or form. In fact, I think the therapist asking AJ, "Have you considered writing about your experiences? It may be cathartic." is a hint that this is what Chase himself is doing with his own bleak feelings on the human condition. (The line may have come from another writer too of course.)

I know Fly On Melfi's Wall has always clung to the hope of growth in Tony, if only in the form of a deathbed confession, and I appreciate that; the character is very charismatic, he is ours, and we've seen glimmers of enlightenment in him. But I've always thought Fly will be the final woman fascinated with Tony Soprano who was baited into hoping for more from him than he ultimately will give her. I say that with great admiration for her writing about the show and running this board.

Instead the only impulse I can potentially see satiated for viewers next week is our unhealthy one for revenge on Tony, and then on those who exacted revenge on Tony. (The NY Post columnists will be elated I'm sure.) Other than that, perhaps just sharing in the catharsis of the writers. The world is miserable but at least we got a beautiful and amazing drama out of it that has enriched our lives and connected us here to our fellow fanatics. And some relief or hope that we're not wasting the gifts of our own days like Tony is. I feel better already. Phew. Thought I was going to have to drain my pool.

Re: Tony's last words to Melfi/Yochelson, Elliot, Melfi and

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Lawguy wrote:I never found the whole study thing to be something that a real professional would even be remotely phased by. Why? Because the study that was referred to involves people who were FORCED into therapy and its effect on them following a conviction.

Tony has VOLUNTARILY sought out therapy. What would be his motive to do so other than in seeknig help? The felons that were the subject of the study obviously had an incentive to be something less than honest with their therapists.

That being said, Tony was right. Melfi's act was immoral, especialy in its timing.
Yes, Lawguy, but Tony didn't seek therapy to reform his sociopathic personality. He sought it to deal with things that plagued him as an individual- panic attacks and depression. The former so far are relieved, the latter persists. Why did Melfi not read the study until the penultimate episode? I agree with Bella's conclusions above. She didn't want the study to be correct and perhaps avoided it. But when she does face up to it, she realizes that the study is relevant for her work with Tony. She is not doing anything besides helping him hone his skills as a criminal in ways very much mirroring the study.

As the audience, we've seen it for a long time, for example, in Mr. and Mrs. Sac Request, when Tony reveals to Melfi his fears of looking weak to his cohorts and she encourages him to "act as if". The insight he gains from this session is that he must publicly beat the shit out of a big guy who didn't do anything.

Re: Tony's last words to Melfi/Yochelson, Elliot, Melfi and

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Yes, well said Krakower. My only point is that whether Tony develops empathy is not entirely up to him. I do believe criminals can change, can learn, can grow, just like we all can, but they need the right kind of therapy, one that is more empathetic and less traditional than the old school psychoanalytic one Melfi provided. There are not many studies to prove this though because as a society we have written this group off, and seriously good therapy has not been tried with people like Tony for 30 years. Tony DID respond to Melfi in many ways, but like you said, he couldn't go all the way to becoming a whole person. A different therapist with more faith in Tony's capacities might have succeeded where Melfi failed. You're right about how the Sopranos is a tragedy, and the failed therapy is part of that. All I'm saying is that it would be an even deeper tragedy for the public to conclude that therapy for people like Tony is a waste of time.

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