Sorry to add the 'please read' in my thread title, its just that i havent had the chance to come online much this week and post my thoughts in the depth i would like and am rather anxious for any feedback or supporting thoughts and theories anyone may or may not have on my post before discussion undertsandably turns to the 'S6EP05: Mr. and Mrs. Sacrimon request' thread, so thank you for bearing with me.

OK, Im not sure if im perhaps reading too much into these points, however i noted the following observations and they seemed poignant to me in light of what we know particularly from "Mayham".

Basically, there were a rather high number of 'duality' instances which stood out for me which i would appreciate any thoughts on:



<span style="font-size:medium;"><div style="text-align:center">'Pappy' / 'Daddy' duality</div></span>

We see the Latin father and son travelliing in the dumptruck together and on the father being beaten by the Cinelli guys, we see the son run feverishly to his father's aid, despartely crying: "Pappy, Pappy", i.e: Daddy.

This immediately took me back to ComaMeadow calling of 'Daddy' from deep in the woods at the 'Inn on the Oaks', the crys which we know, ultimately saved Tony from the negative fate which was there waiting inside the Inn, and reaffirming Meadow's position of the 'Guardian Angel' as alluded to as per Burrough's episode 1 opening monologue.

This latin boys crys didnt seem that significant to me, but upon watching a few more times, i realised that his echoing crys carry on long after the visual of that scene fades out, and continue to be heard over the next shot of Tony sleeping and with the 'Ojibwe Saying' having a rather errie prominence in the very focus of the shot (Eerie in the sense that it is no longer pinned to the notice board and seems to be almost floating in mid-air.....anyone else notice this).

NOW THIS IS WHERE I NEED YOU GUYS TO TELL ME I AM NOT GOING CRAZY AND HEARING THINGS.... (LOL)

...When Tony is wheeled out of the hospital by his 'families', just as Tony stops and looks out into the traffic, a car drives past blasting out Latin sounding music, (This seemed to condition me to momentarily think about the Father and son as they were speaking in Spanish)

NOW THIS IS THE THING, its almost blink and youll miss it....listen VERY closely and i swear, i hear an almost muffled 'DADDY' cry, upon which point Tony seems to have a spiritual awakening, almost as if this muffled 'Daddy' cry a trigger, which momentarily kicked in his conscious to his subconscious and brought ComaMeadow's(and real Meadow for that matter) cries, those which ultimately SAVED him, and which are re-affirmed by the timely and joyous bell chimes, urging him to proclaim to Janice (although a seemingly cold and dispondent Janice), that he is the "luckiest guy in the whole world".

The following shot shows Meadow now with the family group when we didnt particularly see her with them much when walking out of the hospital so the fact that she was now shown prominently seemed to be as a reaffirmation of this guardian angel point for Tony upon the ringing bells.

In the Burroughs poem showing some kind of pay-off here, i am now more inclined to dissect its hidden meaning as like FOMW has said somewhere, it was hard for me to link it in to any particular storylines as it seemed so 'trippy' it was hard to hang onto.

In this vein though, AJ is shown as the 'devil' in the poem, someone who dies upon adolescence......is it therefore worth noting that AJ wasnt anywhere to be seen outside the hospital when Tony realised HE is not dead but alive.......or ould it simply be he was working at his new job at Blockbusters LOL!! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

Fantastic pick by by BADABING21 BTW of the link with Scrooge in 'A Christmas Carol' (and of course, tie in with the Scrooge reference in TEST DREAM) wherby upon the bells ringing, Scrooge/Tony professes to his servant/Janice that he's not dead, he's alive.


Please tell me im not the only person who heard this formentioned muffled 'Daddy' cry! (LOL)


<span style="font-size:medium;"><div style="text-align:center">Tony's joyous Church bells / Paulie's damning Church bells</div></span>

Staying with the issue of the bells, it was again a nice 'duality' IMO of the rather joyous, celbratory bells (much that you would hear at a wedding (nee rebirth of a new life) with the bells which we hear for Paulie at the end of the episode, bells almost sounding like those afforded to someone in olden times taking the walk to a hangman or the guilottine, i.e: a negative fate, and indeed Paulie taking the long walk along the pier, with the pure look of evil on his face, demonstrated this to a degree.

I also liked how we again see the bell tower in the background (as with Tony's bells), yet in this instance we see a much more prominent Crucifix/cross, which seemed to link the religious repercussion of the nun's moral sin of conceiving and how Paulie as an abeit innocent fruit of that moral sin, may be somehow damned because of it (not that all his own moral sins along the way havent helped!!)



<span style="font-size:medium;"><div style="text-align:center">Jason and Paulie's biological mother's scuba slippers</div></span>

I take no credit for this find....great catch billymac72261, was a nice symbolic tie in of Paulie's strong link to both storylines and how we are privy to how the 2 are ultimately and intimately connected for him. - I also liked the further 'dual' imagery of the mutant type statue we see outside the scuba shop by the waterfront in the opening being mirrored by Paulie's own monstrous demeanour as he walked away from the waterfront at the close having just beat Jason, thoughts of his Ma obviously rife in his mind.



<span style="font-size:medium;"><div style="text-align:center">Carmela's wardrobe / demeanour</div></span>

I agree with those who picked up on Carmella being rather ominously dressed in black when she tells Tony to 'watch out for Vito' and was instantly reminded of DreamCarmella's/Benning's strategic dress of balck and white in TEST DREAM.

When Tony tells Carmella earlier in the scene, "Theyre gonna stitch me up tomorrow", the shot of Carmella was framed very similarly to the above mentioned shot, and seemed just as eerie to me.

Tony tells Carmella, "Im having surgery tommorow, theyre closing me up"...Carmella gives a very distinct DISTANT look and doesnt comment at all - i would have expected her to react verbally in some sense, even just to say 'thats good news' or something but the fact that she didnt, twinned with the look said something to me that i cannot put my finger on - does anyone have any ideas on this at all or am i looking for something that just isnt there?

I also noted the time on the wall clock in the Carmela/You better watch Vito scene as 3 minutes to 10.....this was also the EXACT time on the clocktower when Tony ha his 'Scrooge' revelation near the end of the episode....and this got me thinking, is there anything in this.....i mean, the clocktower bells chime at 3 minutes to 10....surely such chimes would occur on the hour, the half hour etc...

I may be reading too much into wall clock times this season, although i have to believe there is reason and significance behind many of them



<span style="font-size:medium;"><div style="text-align:center">Silvio's dislike for hospital waiting rooms</div></span>

Just liked the link of Silvio, upon Tony leaving hospital, saying something along the lines of "I know how good you feel.... i was only in the hospital one night and i couldnt wait to get out!"....just reminded me of the dream sequence in FUNHOUSE, where Silvio was greatful to Tony setting himself on fire to a quick death to "spare him all those f#cking visits to the hospital"

<span style="font-size:medium;"><div style="text-align:center">3rd degree burns</div></span>

Obvious duality here whereby Tony is now sympathetic to a girls burn wounds, where this sympathy was lacking in the similar burn incident in TEST DREAM with Valentina



<span style="font-size:medium;"><div style="text-align:center">Tony's cigar / Bobby's cigar</div></span>

This one stood out at me. Just before we see Bobby dialoguing with the rapper outside the hospital, we see him seemingly enjoy some very prominent puffs of his cigar, radiating a rather confident and powerful pose.

Cigars are often symbolic of people in power or of power itself, and particular assciated with powerful leaders of men/armies; Winston Churchill for example, (Clinton too for that matter, but for a whole different reason!!).

Cigars have also been hugely symbolic of Tony's own status and power since the beginning. Heck, the opeing credits piece, which opens every single episode as prominent cuts of Tony puffing on his cigar and biting it in his teeth in a way which makes it symbolic of the crowl of a ship, leading him home. (This was mentioned by the person who directed the opening credits in one of the DVD commentaries, i am sorry but the name escapes me)

With Tonys period of convalescene and Sil seemingly ill-prepared to fill the breech in the short-term at least, Bobby would seemingly be in standing for the acting role and beware well aware of this, may already be adjusting himself mentally for the role, hence his gesturing of power with the cigar.

I cant help but feel that Bobby's 'Toy-train fetish' may also be related. In running toy-trains, Bobby, as the operator has ultimate control, he makes all the decisions, he gives the orders, he pushes all the buttons...he has the power.

I strongly feel the two scenarios have to be related.

Furthermore, the allusion of Bobby in the Season6 Promo Poster, being the only other person other than Tony being seated, seemingly suggests IMO his almost natural successor (be that short or long term) to Tony's position

Viewing this against Tony's seeminlgy disdain with his cigar smoking outside the hospital with Phil Leotardo, distinguishing of its <span style="text-decoration:underline">flame/fuel/power</span> and then ultimately caving into NYs offer which began with this hospital discussion, to me displays that Tony can no longer/no longer wants to stomach his position of authority (which by almost default would suggest the same for THE life). This was also pointed out by FlyOnMelfisWall's comment of Tonys vomitting earlier in the scene of talk of high end mob business not being able to stomach (dare I say, not wanting indeed) this life any more - at least subconsciously at this point anyhow.

---------

I agree with everyone who says this season is just getting better and better - more of the same next week Chase et al, please and thank you to everyones continuing insightful and facinating contributions on these boards which further fuel my love and appreciation of this magnificanet masterpiece of our time.

Giuseppe Soprano

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge ... Soprano</A> at: 4/9/06 12:36 pm

yes, the cigar thing is nice.cigars have been used before in books(Momo by Michael Ende[Neverending Story] for example) to emphasise the zest for action of greedy and/or bad people.
I am wondering if the story in the end will stay 'rational' in the modern world or if something surreal will happen, Tony making the time stand still or something like that.

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AJ wasn't the devil in the poem. He was the double, the only reliable guide to the land of the dead, the western lands.

</p>

You bring up a couple good points here:

Pappy/Daddy

Yeah, the boy's cries do carry over to the next scene with Tony sleeping, and it definitely is odd. I'm really not sure what to make of it, but there's no clear relevance to that scene, which means we should be looking harder. Notice also (and this was mentioned elsewhere) that there is a notepad type page right behind the note which is very similar to the page that the Finnerty family reunion flyer was printed on. Something like that couldn't be a coincidence.
I actually didn't make the Meadow connection, but after reading your post, I completely agree...
And here's the part you're waiting for: No, I don't think you're crazy - I know what you're talking about - you can hear the kids, and then you hear the girl going 'daddy' and it almost sounds like the 'y' part is cut off. I'm not really sure its 'daddy' she's saying, it could easily be something else I think, but it doesn't have to be, kids playing outside the hospital is close enough to the scene outside the Inn on the Oaks to establish a significance I think.

Bells

Again, agreed. Tony's bells are very 'rebirth'-ish while Paulie's are more solemn, 'for whom the bell tolls'-ish

Scuba Slippers

Yeah, I noticed the slippers also. Nice catch on the beginning/ending similarities though.

Carm

I didn't catch the wardrobe thing, and I'm not sure what to make of it. But the look on Carm's face threw me off instantly. There really is something there, I'm just not sure what it is. Part of it, I think, is just despair at his situation, which is reasonable. Tony says 'I'm having surgery' and Carm kinda shrinks a little with the bad news, and has this 'what can we do?' helpless look like she genuinely feels bad for him. That first look is okay I think... it's a bad situation, etc. etc. Then when Tony says 'They're closing me up' again Carm gets a look and kinda looks away from Tony - that's the one I have more trouble with. I don't know what to make of it. The only thing I can possibly think of is that she's just a little disappointed that things will be back to normal. It's clearly easier for her to love Tony as he is, and she's thinking that once he's back to normal, things will be bad with them again and she'll have to start putting up with his bull shit again.

3rd Degree burns

Tony always feels sorry for those people that he thinks are helpless. The little girl, animals, etc. Valentina annoyed the piss out him so it was easy for him not to feel sorry for her.

Cigars

Very very good catch here - I would've never made that connection. I did notice they spent much more time on Bobby smoking the cigar then necessary, but didn't know what it meant. lol I was thinking they were being funny, cuz it looked like he was having a little trouble with something cuz he kept looking at it (I don't smoke, so have no idea what the trouble could be, but I've seen them light cigars with a couple puffs sometimes and it looked slightly complicated!)
But Bobby has been displaying a lot more traditional mob characteristics this season. Duking it out with Vito over the sports book (or whatever it was), questioning Silvio at the hospital 'Yea, what do you mean For Now?' (I was pleasantly surprised to see Bobby show some balls with that line) and of course when he drives to Sil's house, blocks the ambulance and goes 'I didn¡¦t hear from you' with utter disregard for Sil's condition. Selfishness never looked so funny. Finally, showing balls with 'I'm liable to do something drastic'. Big balls too, I might add - who would say that (threaten) to an acting boss??

The train thing is possible, and I just had a thought on this. The opening poem says Janice is the Director, and then they show Bobby, though not clearly attributing anything to him. I hadn't been able to figure this out to satisfaction, and it may be that if Bobby does ever become boss like you suggest, Janice will almost surely become a puppet-master type. She wears the pants in that relationship, and Bobby alone isn't smart enough to be boss.
The poster thing also very good... I didn't pay attention to it, and you're right! Not only is Bobby sitting, he's unhappy... which is a good thing. Tony is always unhappy in poses, because he has so much crap to deal with, and Bobby looks to be in a similar position there. Notice also, that Janice is directly behind him, standing, with her hands on his shoulders (and leaning forward slightly I think). Of the two of them, Janice looks much more in control. I think you may be on to something here!!

Other things that could support Bobby's ascension: He's family now (thru Janice, and kinda thru Junior cuz Bobby was so connected to him) and we all know how much that means to Tony. Not only that, but Chris has been nothing but a disappointment to Tony, and now that Tony is a little 'softer', or put another way, less angry, more clear-headed and easier-going, he may realize that having Bobby as his #2 is better then having Chris. Sure Bobby is dumber, but he doesn't have any of the faults (not only numerous, but lethal) Chris has. And their personalities will mesh too, cuz Bobby is easy going, and Tony is getting that way. Bobby's stupidity may even be an asset to Tony, since Tony won't have to worry about Bobby trying to usurp control or do anything else smart (which, even though Chris is his nephew, Tony would be smart enough to always keep at the back of his mind cuz he knows what kinda people are in his "family"), while Tony enjoys the benefits of a #2 (buffer, administrator, etc.)

Anyway, having said all this, the only problem I have (and it's a big one) is that Bobby, for 5 seasons, has been portrayed as being ultra stupid, and all this kinda flys in the face of all that.

Call it wishful thinking, but I think Bobby being a #2 (or having some top position in some capacity) isn't outside the realm of possibility.

</p>

Since you mentioned the poster, I wanted to ask a question that has been bugging me for a while...

2 questions actually: On the poster, where is AJ?? Why isn't he there? Everyone else instrumental to the show is...

Also, who is Meadow's boyfriend there? It clearly isn't Fin, and doesn't look like anyone I can recognize...


</p>

That is AJ standing next to Meadow in the poster. It's just that he has grown older and that's a very different angle, so his face doesn't look as round.

</p>

Wow that's AJ?? I've stared at that posted for like a solid 5 minutes now and it doesn't look like him to me...

I could've sworn the guy was somebody I'd seen Meadow with but just couldn't recognize.Oh well.

</p>

Some nice thoughts and observations in this post, GS. Those that I find particularly interesting:

(1) The editorial choice to blend the scene of the Latino kid crying "pappy, don't be dead!" with Tony sleeping in his hospital bed, the Indian saying now pulled from the wall and sitting on the bed side tray.

This directly echoes the voice of coma Meadow in the windy trees/real Meadow in the hospital room bringing him "home" and back to life. I didn't hear the "daddy" thing on the street as the car passed at all, but then the right channel on my receiver is out, so it could have been mixed heavily to that side. What was most noticeable to me about the street scene was the literal "rush" of feeling that seemed to overtake Tony with the swirling wind. And of course that great catch about the bells and "A Christmas Carol" sort of marks that scene as the moment when Tony truly feels reborn. It's as though it took being outisde and in the wind for all that happened in his NDE to crystallize in his consciousness.

(2) Tony's inability to smoke the cigar and Bobby's juxtaposed enjoyment of the same.

I definitely noted Tony having to abort the cigar after he'd barely even lit it but missed the corollary of Bobby smoking one. I agree this should be weighed with the scene in ep one of Bobby in his "director's" hat running the toy train during/very near the part of the voiceover about "my director" (IIRC). I also count Tony's words to Bobby as potentially prophetic, "every man will be judged on his own merit", after which Bobby comes to Tony with a fat envelope. Bobby's "merit" on the mob scales just went up.

GS, you make a very intriguing and astute observation about the season poster. Aside from the fact that Tony and Bobby are the only ones seated, there is the fact that a "throne" is for sitting. So perhaps you are correct in that the poster illustrates the pending transition of power on the "family" throne.

On Carmela, yes, I definitely noticed her odd look and tacit reaction to Tony's comment that he was being "closed up". I took it as objective proof that Melfi's hunch was correct when she asked Carm, "Are you afraid you won't love him when he wakes up?" Just as Carm was idealized in Tony's NDE, she could idealize him while he was so frail, vulnerable, and near death. She really fears that the infidelity, which has always been the most personal and troubling aspect of his immorality to her, will accompany his return to health and that in general he will be more difficult to love. Thus there was an element of disappointment to news of his progress.

</p>