Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#201
Splishak wrote:He's also been saying the same kind of thing that Junior used to say to him. Remember him saying to AJ (in the session with AJ's shrink and Carm), "You're a momma's boy!". If you listen to that it is exactly the same intonation that Junior used to use when talking about Tony.

I seem to recall one of the things Junior used to say is, "He's a hothouse flower". Whatever that means. I may be mistaken, but that is what I seem to recall.


Pretty sure the 'hothouse flower' refers to the similarity to when someone has to be pampered to be kept going, so-to-speak.

And regarding the same intonation being passed down thru the generations (kinda like the sins of the fathers, etc...) remember last ep when AJ is at the dining table with Tony and Carm going over his life choices leading up to his latest decision to go to the Army-- AJ responds to Carm exactly like Tony used to say-- something about "Always with the drama!..." while rolling his eyes and arching his head. it was hilarious! :icon_rolleyes: (this smiley isn't quite right- reminds me more of uncle Junior with the smile on just one half of his lips...)
sorry just realized Madribub already refers to this in previous post...

Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#202
madribub wrote:Hesper79, great post. Just a tangent: Chase is a Leo (Virgo Cusp) with his moon in Aquarius. So he has these two forces in conflict, that is if my calculations are correct.


Thats interesting Madribub and Hesper79- can you elaborate more on this? Probably you or someone did before, so sorry if i'm not up to date on old posts, but whats the deal with Tony Being born at that time? i tried to post about the significance of Tony entering door Number 22 (Master Number) in last ep, when visiting Junior. That he's born on the 22nd cannot be unintentional- its a pretty significant birthday number; but i was hoping someone who really knows about this type of thing would elaborate more.

Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#203
To those who have posted that the effects of Peyote cause one to "trip" in the sense where one could experience things that were outside of reality, I must disagree with that assesment of the plants effects. Peyote is not known to cause hallucinations per se, especially in the small amount that they consumed. Peyote gives you a more internal "trip" that is inherently spiritual and will reveal things to you that are always there rather than make you hallucinate them. That is the nature of the plant which the filmmakers nailed with the feel and vibe of the lighting, camera shots, etc. But he never hallucinated, he was experiencing heightened reality, where the very framework of the universe appeared so simple, so easily deciphered. That is the REAL experience of Peyote. Tony really was there and really was doing those things. What I cant get over is where in the history of Cinema and maybe even storytelling, have you heard of a mafia Don taking Peyote in the desert? I mean it's like Chase is saying "What if?" and smiling at us. It is quite the experiment and Tony turns out just fine, maybe even better. But he has been given to many chances to "get it" I fear and ironically his death at the end is the tragic finish. He never "got it" in time............
[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]You know, Vito called me “skip” the other day. Slip of the tongue, no doubt. But I noticed he didn’t correct himself.[/font][SIZE="1"][/SIZE]

Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#204
Re the What If aspect- i think Tony was originally inspired to do it because Christufuh had done it, and that whole trip out there was following in Chris's footsteps, being where Chris had been (literally in terms of his mistress!). It was as if he was re-tracing steps- maybe to get consciousness of what he had done, to understand better what he had killed.

And re that DC was kind of smiling at us- that i could see also. And speaking of who wouldda thought-- A Mafia Don going to a shrink-- well I re-watched the movie "Analyze This" the other day, never laughed so hard! I had last seen it before watching the Sopranos, and watching it again gave it all new meaning and vice versa, shed new light and humor on the Sopranos experience. Well worth re-watching Analyze This.

Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#205
It seems like a sort of experiment for Tony, less an homage to Chris. Though Chris probably made Tony feel more secure about his curiousity to do Peyote. As you can tell by the reaction by the guys at the bing when he returns, his other peers look at him sideways when Tony starts describing it to them. So they were not approving of it. In fact I think they may of thought of it as a sign of weakness given their reaction. Anyway, Tony went to Vegas to literally have his "trip in the desert". Sort of a Jim Morrison moment, if you will. He wanted to see something more than the everyday ordinary. He always believed in it but he wanted to live and breathe it rather than like Carmela's religion, pray and talk about other who livined and breathed it IMHO (and a generalization of Catholics). But I think Tony was attempting to connect to a higher power but more importantly communicate with it. And he did. I have more to say but need to stop at this point. Stay tuned..........
[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]You know, Vito called me “skip” the other day. Slip of the tongue, no doubt. But I noticed he didn’t correct himself.[/font][SIZE="1"][/SIZE]

Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#206
[color=royalblue]oh please do continue! But meanwhile, as for the generalization of catholics- well, i guess an argument could be made that taking communion could have a sort of peyote parallel... sorry if that sounds too offensive to other catholics- not meant to be. The very description you used about the intake of peyote could apply to some people's description of how they receive Christ internally and personally thru the act of receiving communion. ANd at the same time you're right that there are plenty of catholics i have known who are exactly as you negatively describe, in that they know it only third hand...However, i truly don't want to be in any position of negatively judging a whole group because individual members are imperfect or un-representative of the whole. The Catholic religion particularly adheres to the idea that we are a community of believers, and we actually plea to God during Mass to "look not on our (individually committed) sins, but on the faith of your church (the whole group)". So, sorry if i'm sounding like i'm preaching, but i have a point, because i think all my religious views on this stuff is how i/we can shed light on understanding Tony and the whole Sopranos paradigm, especially since that’s his cultural foundation, for all its faults and attributes.[/color]

Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#207
Exactly I agree with what you said. I think the choice to potray Tony finally finding "it" (ie god, enlightenment whatever) was deliberately put there to show that regardless of Carmela's Catholic understanding of God, there is Tony's more I dare say New Age\mystical side. Remember the female Don in Italy. She was some sort of witch. Tony "get's it" through a different route than Carmela. But he get's it nonetheless. This episode was Tony ecoming enlightened to some degree and communicating with a higher power (Christopher AA reference anyone?) in the End. He gets that we are co-creators. We have destiny AND free will. That is a common theme IMO during this season. But he discovers TOO late I'm afraid and cant change before getting killed himself. So much you can say!!!!!!!!
[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]You know, Vito called me “skip” the other day. Slip of the tongue, no doubt. But I noticed he didn’t correct himself.[/font][SIZE="1"][/SIZE]

Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#208
Maybe its been said in this thread already so I apologize ahead of time for that. But isnt it symbolic that Tony should succeed in killing HIS nephew and that Jr. never did succeed. Two times that the Uncle murdering the nephew theme was brought up. Is that part of the meaning of "I get it"?
[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]You know, Vito called me “skip” the other day. Slip of the tongue, no doubt. But I noticed he didn’t correct himself.[/font][SIZE="1"][/SIZE]

Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#209
Maybe its been said in this thread already so I apologize ahead of time for that. But isnt it symbolic that Tony should succeed in killing HIS nephew and that Jr. never did succeed. Two times that the Uncle murdering the nephew theme was brought up. Is that part of the meaning of "I get it"?
[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]You know, Vito called me “skip” the other day. Slip of the tongue, no doubt. But I noticed he didn’t correct himself.[/font][SIZE="1"][/SIZE]

Re: Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What D

#210
hmmm, good point about the repeated theme of uncle versus nephew.

i had been taking the "I Get It" scene as relating to Tony receiving forgiveness, or the realization that he was already forgiven and just needed to "get it" or accept it. Equally so, then Junior would also be forgiven for his malicious attempts, even if he failed. When Tony (or IMO anyone) gets that they have already been forgiven even before they "know" it, then Tony or anyone else will also realize that the same holds true for everyone else, including those who have harmed us. Not only is Tony forgiven, but so is Junior. That allows Tony to forgive Junior himself more easily, since he now realizes that Junior's creator forgives Junior. Tony can then be free to visit Junior and accept him for what he is, including his weaknesses. Tony no longer needs to bear the burden of holding Junior accountable or in judgment for his actions- he can let him go. Which also means he can now really be with him freely.

That Tony "succeeded" where Junior failed in killing a nephew makes me wonder about the tiny steps of improvement by the succeeding generations that Chase referred to in the latest interview. In this regard, Tony is worse than his previous generation. But mostly, i think he made some improvements. Just seeking therapy for his problems set a good example to his offspring , IMO.

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