Vegas and Peyote/Tony's Motives for Killing Chris/What Does

#1
I don't know what in heck happened. I was moving some posts and all of a sudden an entire thread disappeared. My deepest apologies.

I still have the page left in my back button cache, so I'm going to copy/paste the various posts that existed right before deletion.

EDIT - Just as a note to members, this thread contains posts from a few different threads, including the general discussion thread. Fly has placed them all here to keep discussion of Tony's "I get it" moment and the murder of Chris together. We may break out discussion of "Kennedy and Heidi" as the name of the episode at some future point if it becomes more detailed, but for the moment, we'll keep it here as it seems to relate. DH.
Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

Re: Tony's Trip (accidentally deleted!)

#2
billyp
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Re: Episode 6.18: Kennedy and Heidi - Grades and General Review I'm suprised noone has mentioned the symbolism of Tony going to Vegas paralleling Jesus being tempted in the desert.

We see him giving into temptation.
The devil on the slot machine.
Spoken to by a higher power on the mountain.
The very last image before it cuts to black is Tony standing with his arms up as though hanging from a cross with the prostitute at his feet. (Mary Magdalin)

This seemed very intentional to me. Does anyone agree?



tomahawk
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I need to watch the episode again, but was anyone else thinking that Tony's winning streak and subsequent "I get it" were a Peyote induced dream? When we got a close up of the light fixture, I thought it that meant he was going to start tripping. His trip into the casino was in a suit, but he looked disheveled and his shirt wasn't tucked in. Something else about him staggering into a hazy casino seemed dreamlike to me. This whole sequence seemed to have a fuzzy filter making it look less than real.

Is there any significance to the numbers Tony bet on? Notice that when he won at roulette it was not the same number. I know he won on 20 and 24, but I'm not certain of the other winner. In "Chasing it" he bet on 23 (Meadow's age?) won once and then lost it all. AJ is 20 years old. Has he been married to Carmella for 24 years, hence the number 24 winner? Since he lost on 23 last week does that mean AJ and Carmella will live and Meadow will die?

Watching Chris at the meeting in NY it was obvious he was tripping (great acting by MI). As soon as he said he wouldn't pass a drug test, he was going to die one way or another.

This is another instance where Tony is very lucky. Instead of having to worry about Chris flipping or killing Tony, Tony has an easy way out.

Great episode



CaliberCutChops
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The game of roulette, according to Tony, operated at the same concept as the solar system. We see him playing that table earlier, and continuing his losing streak from "Chasing It.". He then takes peyote with Chris' former goomah, and then heads back to that table. Guided by a Native American dealer, he then proceeds to bet on 24, among other numbers, and is able to win. He is able to predict the outcome of a seemingly random universe after taking that trip. Afterwards, he says "He is dead.". I don't think he is referring to Christopher here. I think he is talking about Kevin Finnerty. His bad luck has run out, his so-so luck with women, his "weakness" with Finnerty had disappeared once he killed another cousin of his. At the end, when Tony sees the sun flare as did the light from hell during his brief visit to Costa Mesa, he says (and I paid attention again to notice) "I get it.". This is vastly more important than "I did it.", as it would have obviously appealed to Christopher's murder. However, the fact that he says "I get it." brings some metaphysics into play. He gets what? He gets that Kevin Finnerty is gone now, and he is going to hell? When he stared up at that ceiling light in the bathroom, one can obviously remember the hospital light glaring into his eyes while he was in a comatose state.



HagensBing1977
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It started off with the surreal plane ride. It ended with a gleeful outburst upon an amazing spot of America. (no music as the credits begain)

Then of course there was the "trip" within the trip. Kevin Finnerty all over again, except without the sense of responsibility.


I'm interested in gaining everyone's thoughts as to what this trip all means.

billyp
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I think it was another spiritual revelation. Maybe good, maybe evil.

Watch closely at the very last scene before it cuts to black. It looks like his body position resembles Christ hanging from the cross, with the prostitute (Mary Magdaline) at his feet.
Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

Re: Tony's Trip (accidentally deleted!)

#3
FlyOnMelfisWall wrote:tomahawk

I need to watch the episode again, but was anyone else thinking that Tony's winning streak and subsequent "I get it" were a Peyote induced dream? When we got a close up of the light fixture, I thought it that meant he was going to start tripping.


Tomahawk, that is how I interpreted it, especially after watching a second time. The sheer improbability of him actually winning at roulette consecutively like that confirms as much as anything that the trip into the casino with the stripper was indeed a "trip" and never happened in reality. Same for the trip to the dessert to see the sunset.
Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

Re: Tony's Trip (accidentally deleted!)

#4
I have a lot of thoughts to add to this later, but I also wanted to add that the shot of the bathroom light was also reminiscent of several shots in the Test Dream (most notably the smoke alarm after Valentina gets burned) in addition to recalling the shot of the light fixture in the hospital after his shooting.

Re: Episode 6.18: Kennedy and Heidi - Grades and General Rev

#5
Hmmm...
Some religious imagery and undercurrents:
1. Dreams play a significant role in the episode. Dreams in the New Testament, especially, are counduits between the soul in temporal relaity and the eternal knowledge of God. Joseph, for example, is told all he needs to know in order to play his roles in God's divine plan by a voice in several dreams. Tony's dream of "baring his soul" to Melfi seems like a necessary precursor to any possibility of redemption (absolution, at least) for Tony. His departure to Vegas is prefaced by seeing a "Madonna" image of the mother and inoocent child. Others have suggested that the entire Vegas scenario seems more than suggestive of being a dream reality--a la Kevin Finnerty.

2. Vegas...the tempting mirage in the desert. Tony departs for Vegas alone, just as Jesus retreats into the desert. One might say that through his encounters with Satan in the desert--during which Satan informs Jesus of his identity--that Jesus "gets it" and returns filled with the Holy Spirit, ready for the trials of ministry. If Tony indeed "gets it," to what is he returning? What ministry awaits him? What knowledge has been imparted to him?

3. The roulette wheel. In Tony's recovery from the bullet wound, he encounters the physics guy (I forget his name) who offers a model of the universe and human life as profoundly connected. The idea that what appears to be two storms is actually just one--the molecules are all connected. The sheer improbability if TOny's winning at what should be a highly improbable game of chance to win big points to the reality of the "supernatural" and even the reality of a personal God. A God who seeks to break through the clouded and dim senses of we who have become mired in slefishness, materialism and ego. The parable of the Prodigal Son comes to mind--many times during this episode I commented to my wife, "It's amazing how self-centered Chase is painting TOny this episode." When considering how welf-centered the lost son was in the parable, it bears fruit.

Oops...I have to cut this short...will try to come back later...I have a few other points to make about AJ, "Christ"opher Moltisanti, and the asbestos...

Re: Tony's Trip (accidentally deleted!)

#6
There is one point I don't agree with. Both times that Tony thrusts his arms upward its a triumphant gesture more like a "touchdown" signal. It is not him thrusting his arms outward in a crucifixion simulation.

Did everyone notice the "beacon" caused by the passing car headlights when Tony was deciding what to do about Christopher at the crash site?

Regarding my post above, I re-watched the episode and the number 24 was a two time winner. 20 was a one time winner.

Roulette, the Solar System, and Kevin Finnerty

#7
Rugby Jake and billyp, excellent observations by you both.

I did not see Christian symbolism by virtue of the desert and the whore thing, although, after you point it out, it does fit. The baby nursing did immediately evoke Isabella, which can be read to evoke the madonna and child.

My first interprative impulses on the Vegas/peyote part of the episode involve the sun. Tony mentioned that the roulette wheel works on the same principle as the solar system. The tangential velocity of the ball is countered by the centripetal force pulling it toward the center (in this case the walls of the wheel pushing it towards the center), so it spends a great deal of time "orbiting" the center of the wheel. Eventually, friction reduces the tangential velocity enough that the gravity pulling it toward the center wins out, and the ball falls inward.

In space there is no friction, if memory serves, so the planets stay in orbit indefinitely. But the principal of two forces, working in opposition and cooperation to produce a delicate balance, characterizes both systems.

Tony is looking at the sun at the end and sees it dim and setting, a tribute to the orderly progression of cycles of the universe and of the persistence of the yin and yang forces that hold the earth and sun together. Suddenly it flares for a moment and becomes much brighter, much closer, and this causes Tony to stand at attention and proclaim shortly afterward, "I get it!"

The $64,000 question is, "what does Tony 'get'?" That "this too shall pass", that when some kind of cosmic friction finally impedes the forces of dispersion that act to keep the solar system and entire universe in delicate state of "scatter", the result will be the crashing of everything towards the center, the total collapse of matter into one, infinitely mammoth black hole?

Kevin Finnerty sold defective solar heating systems. The monks wanted him to take responsibility for his fraud and provide them with "heat". At the time, I posted that perhaps Tony was learning that he had betrayed his purpose and function in the universe, to be an agent of the sun, of light rather than dark, of warmth (love, good) rather than cold (hate, evil), of unity rather than dispersion. As the beacon called to him in the coma, the sun appeared to be calling to him in the peyote trip.

While the symbolism of the end might support this earlier theory, Tony's prior behavior in the episode did anything but support it. I feel somewhat idiotic for even reviving it at this point except for the fact that the sun definitely pointed back to Finnerty in this episode IMO.

In a season where fathers and sons, real and surrogate, have become the continuing and overriding theme, other interpretations also present themselves, all built around the interchange of "son" for "sun". Was the flaring of the sun Tony's recognition that Chris, his "son", was now one with the universe, no different from the tree that the monks told Tony about in his coma? Was it Tony's recognition that his son shone briefly and was now setting (gone)? Was it Tony's recognition that he himself is a son of God? Was it his recognition that Jesus Christ, son of God, son of man, is calling to him? This latter does dovetail with the imagery of Christ, tempted in the desert with Mary Magdadline, that billyp and rugby jake mentioned.

Whatever Tony "gets", I don't think we are meant to know it at this point. The whole episode showed him in an unprecedented place of dispassion and heartlessness. So I'm not inclined to go on any more interpretive limbs that have even the slightest uplift or whiff of redemption. I await further developments, but without any real hope.
Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

Re: Tony's Trips - Vegas and Peyote (accidentally deleted!)

#8
i thought that the sun was rising - which would warrant a whole new set of analogies, so i'll hush.

But wow. The entire 'trip' being just a hallucination and not actually happening didn't occur to me.

(The song in my headphones just now says "A trip to the desert to look at the sky, it's like never-ending mirrors playing tricks on my eyes" - 'Face and Ghost' by Live)
"If it weren't for New Orleans, America would just be a bunch of free people dying of boredom."

Re: Tony's Trips - Vegas and Peyote (accidentally deleted!)

#9
I don't think the trip was a hallucination. Someone earlier mentioned the raggedy clothes, respective to Tony and hoowah, but I think that's exactly the evidence to suggest they were really just tripping balls in vegas. You don't trip and hang out in an apartment, you go out and look at the pretty lights. If it was a hallucination, one, they would not have been so disheveled and out of it as they were, and two, besides the luck of having 24 hit twice, which isn't impossible and is probably just kind of hyperbole about tony's luck turning, there isn't anything in the scenes that is supernatural or out of the ordinary. Seems like something always happened in the dream sequences to allude that it wasn't real (Tony confessing to Melphi, Car ride, Suicide girl, Pussy, Fish head, etc)

Re: Tony's Trips - Vegas and Peyote (accidentally deleted!)

#10
To me I see Tony's trip to Vegas, use of drugs, sex and the heavy gambling in 'Kennedy and Heidi' as an escape from the pressures he feels as the mob boss and his own personal family. He is facing many crises as a mob boss and within his own blood family as well discussed elsewhere and may be overwhelmed by it. To me it may also forshadow him considering a escape from the mob life by going into the witness protection program.

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