Re: Executioner’s Song

#21
Here’s a question for Mangia (or any other poster for that matter): List five "traditional" American values and show how David Chase portrays them in "The Sopranos"? Here's another one: Why do you speak of America in the past tense, "the country ... I knew"?
"Écrasez l'Infâme" -- Voltaire

Re: Executioner’s Song

#22
One last thought on this thread. As an academic historian who studies popular culture, I’d bet my bottom dollar that within a decade "The Sopranos" will be required viewing in advanced level classes dealing with American culture in the early twenty-first century. Tony Soprano and his families will be held up as exemplars of a highly polarized society as it eclipses. Finito!

Re: Executioner’s Song

#23
Avellino wrote:How can one discuss a show like the Sopranos, laced as it is with creator David Chase’s critique of American society, without referring to his critique in the various threads? I’m all for civil discourse (a scant resource on 24-hour cable news) but censorship on a bulletin board is an affront to the first amendment. I think what Detective Hunt is referring to in this instance -- and I don’t want to put words in his mouth -- is our responsibility to be agreeably disagreeable with each other. Of course, The US doesn’t have a Bill of Responsibilities. Perhaps that’s the problem. Voltaire used to say, “I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” That’s pretty libertarian; it’s also altruistic. Altruism -- you don’t see much of that in Tony Soprano’s world.

Let's be very clear - censorship on a bulletin board (which is privately owned and operated) has nothing to do with the 1st amendment. If Fly (and through her, the various moderators) thinks a discussion is moving more towards discussion of politics than where it should be - The Sopranos - then we have every right to stop it or move it elsewhere (that is, somewhere on the forum that is more appropriate.) Each and evey person has a right to say what they wish, but we have the further right to corral it where it needs to be, ask that it be said in a more polite manner (that does not bait fellow posters) and/or ban the member that says something considered "over the line."

Now, on that subject - it is very easy to discuss The Sopranos as far as each episode is concerned without going into a discussion of politics or post-modernism. If members wish to have such a discussion, please take it to The Meet Market. Otherwise, please keep the threads in this particular sub-forum about the episode itself. Hopefully that is clear enough and will not need a third post to further clarify.
"Leave the gun...take the cannoli." - Clemenza

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Re: Executioner’s Song

#24
Avellino wrote:
Mangia cazzo, cocksucker: a term of derision from the old neighbourhood. This is your nom de guerre? I suspect the term was used on kids like Little Vito to toughen them up. In hyper-masculine cultures like those of the Mediterranean, insults like these are commonplace. So too are Oedipal attachments to mama. Put it all together and you produce a culture of virility comprised of bullying mama’s boys. Maybe that’s why David Chase felt the need to enter therapy.


This comment proves that when you substitute cultural stereotypes gleaned from movies, books, TV, etc, for direct and bona fide cultural experience, you're always going to be horribly wrong about people.

Mangia cazzo means "eat my cock" in response to someone you disagree with. You don't call someone a "mangia cazzo"

Chase has issues with his own heritage and instead of dealing with them constructively and privately he paints the ugliest picture imaginable for profit, aided in heaping doses by those enablers licensed by the medical boards.
Who is he to judge who is inappropriately materialistic and exploitative? He's doing the same thing with his show. I like the show, don't get me wrong, but I don't want to hear of any self-professed moral superiority from Chase, who has earned how many tens of millions from his gangster show that exploits the worst in stereotypes? He's a virtual Tony Soprano without the guns and the graft and the violence. I have no problem with that, just be honest and admit the truth.

Re: Executioner’s Song

#25
Avellino wrote:How can one discuss a show like the Sopranos, laced as it is with creator David Chase’s critique of American society, without referring to his critique in the various threads? I’m all for civil discourse (a scant resource on 24-hour cable news) but censorship on a bulletin board is an affront to the first amendment.


How you see the show is your business. That you choose to define it as a "critique of American society" is your prerogative. That you seem willing to impute to David Chase personally certain viewpoints, which he may or may not hold, is also your prerogative. (I would, however, recommend you watch Tony's closing monologue in Christopher again before you are too quick to pick and choose which viewpoints expressed on the show -- through characters -- represent Chase's personal views.)

But I think you will agree that it is not one thing. It is MANY things, everything. And, IMO, the best single-sentence description for it is that it is an examination of humanity . . . American, non American, Mafia, non Mafia, Christian, Jewish, Bhuddist, atheist, "conservative", "liberal", male, female, intelligent, dumb, sociopathic, non sociopathic.

It is possible to discuss these elements as they genuinely relate to the stories being told without turning the discussion into a debate of posters' personal views on those issues, especially an inflammatory debate.

I thought MangiaCazza used unnecessarily dismissive words in response to your original post, which did include an almost-gratuitous statement of your personal opinion on a value system which seeks to impose personal responsibility and accountability in an evironement of strict discpline. I posted to that effect.

However your later responses have needlessly sought to keep this thread entirely about yours (and others') personal socio-political views of America. The main forums are not here for that purpose. If you want to talk about that stuff, in a civil manner, take it to the Meet Market. Keep the Sopranos forums about the Sopranos with commentary about hot button social or political issues included only in so far as reasonably necessary to illuminate interpretations of the story.

MangiaCazzo wrote:I found avellino's remarks inflammatory and this is how I respond to those that think it's acceptable to trash traditional American values.

Part of this retrograde post-mod culture is the unwillingness to declare what is right or wrong. When Americans lose this ability, we're in deep trouble.


MC, you can read for yourself my response to Avellino. I would remind you also that this forum is not provided for you to debate him or anyone else about American values and culture, traditional or otherwise.

Detective Hunt wrote:Let's be very clear - censorship on a bulletin board (which is privately owned and operated) has nothing to do with the 1st amendment. If Fly (and through her, the various moderators) thinks a discussion is moving more towards discussion of politics than where it should be - The Sopranos - then we have every right to stop it or move it elsewhere (that is, somewhere on the forum that is more appropriate.) Each and evey person has a right to say what they wish, but we have the further right to corral it where it needs to be, ask that it be said in a more polite manner (that does not bait fellow posters) and/or ban the member that says something considered "over the line."

Now, on that subject - it is very easy to discuss The Sopranos as far as each episode is concerned without going into a discussion of politics or post-modernism. If members wish to have such a discussion, please take it to The Meet Market. Otherwise, please keep the threads in this particular sub-forum about the episode itself. Hopefully that is clear enough and will not need a third post to further clarify.


A perfect response by you, DH. All posters please take these admonitions to heart, or this thread will be closed.
Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

Re: Executioner’s Song

#26
With all due respect, Fly, you cannot speak about individual Soprano’s episodes in this or any other thread without discussing the cultural politics of America. For Heaven’s sake, this year’s promo poster bears the caption “Made in America.”

The tensions demonstrated in this thread are typical of the polarization and vituperation that is eating away at the US body politic. But you’re the boss, and this is your board. So, please, shut this thread down.

Re: Executioner’s Song

#27
Avellino wrote:With all due respect, Fly, you cannot speak about individual Soprano’s episodes in this or any other thread without discussing the cultural politics of America.


I think we've managed to do so very well for well over a year at Chase Lounge and for several years prior at Sopranoland.

The tensions demonstrated in this thread are typical of the polarization and vituperation that is eating away at the US body politic. But you’re the boss, and this is your board. So, please, shut this thread down.


Exactly the reason I want to keep the discussion ON THE SHOW. As I stated, I WILL shut the thread down if you and/or others insist on the course already cautioned against.

But lest you've forgotten, the main subject of your post was whether Tony's gambling, as the latest in a long line of self-destructive behaviors, was signaling ever stronger his desire for imminent death. That's an interesting topic to which I directed my first reply. I'd like to ask that any further replies be similarly directed.:icon_wink:
Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

Re: Executioner’s Song

#28
Uh... Is it safe?

Anyway, I had posted something in the General Comments thread that I'll repeat here -- Some people gamble compulsively and recklessly with a subconscious desire to lose in order to punish themselves. I would say that Tony is not trying to move toward death, but to a less lethal punishment.

Re: Executioner’s Song

#29
Detective Hunt wrote:Let's keep the discussion centered on the show itself and not move off on another tangent - i.e. opinions on America (or we'll need to move this thread.) As well, please keep the conversation civil and avoid language built to inflame disagreements. Thanks. :smile:


I'm fine with that, just as long as non-Americans aren't permitted to get away with attacking American culture without fear of retribution.

Re: Executioner’s Song

#30
FlyOnMelfisWall wrote:I think we've managed to do so very well for well over a year at Chase Lounge and for several years prior at Sopranoland.



Exactly the reason I want to keep the discussion ON THE SHOW. As I stated, I WILL shut the thread down if you and/or others insist on the course already cautioned against.

But lest you've forgotten, the main subject of your post was whether Tony's gambling, as the latest in a long line of self-destructive behaviors, was signaling ever stronger his desire for imminent death. That's an interesting topic to which I directed my first reply. I'd like to ask that any further replies be similarly directed.:icon_wink:


Interesting how you don't admonish a non-American citizen's America bashing in his intitial post but you'll criticize my use of the word "nonsense." What the hell is that all about? What country am I living in?
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