Re: Situation with bobby shooting.

#12
This is the exact type of Sopranos situation that is impossible to predict.

This Bobby-Montreal hit and his subsequent sloppiness could led to his eventual arrest, flipping and may become one of the major plotlines that defines the entire outcome and ending of the show – or it could never be mentioned again outside of its context of how it relates to Bobby’s emotional state.

You really can’t tell. While on the one hand Bobby’s own remark about DNA evidence could be considering pretty obvious foreshadowing, it could also be completely irrelevant. The Sopranos has had some pretty sloppy hits, the most blatant being the Paulie/Vito robbery where they shoot up a bunch of people and leave prints everywhere. Its always been a sort of flaw in the realism of the show.

Re: Situation with bobby shooting.

#13
I liked Carmella's foreshadowing of this - when Tony is sitting out looking out on the lake the morning after the fight, reminiscing of his impressions on a young Carmella by beating up a locally reknowned tough-guy at 'Pizza World', Carmella exclaims something along the lines of "Should I be impressed you beat up your brother-in-law on your 47th birthday" yet what is interesting, is the line she follows up with:


"You get away with MURDER because you are his (Bobby's) boss"


We all know what Tony later asked of Bobby in order to reaffirm to him, without explicitally having to state it (although an order to kill is rather explicit IMO!) who was still actually in charge even after Bobby's seeming win after getting 'one-up' on Tony in the Monopoly Massacre :)

Did Carmella, perhaps, subliminially plant this order in Tonys mind at this point?
Obviously she had NO idea what was going on with any Canadians etc yet would Tony somehow take some weird reassurance from Carmella's words, ply them around his own inner thought process with regards to what he later asks of Bobby, to perhaps think himself that he is somehow doing the right thing?

With regards to charaters' female partners/associates having their ears on such matters, we have seen this before with Livia and Junior re the Brendan Filone (sp?) - although this was much more specific and calculating yet also we have since similar, in this 'innocent' resepect, in 6A, when Mrs Leotardo told Phil that Vito should be "Made to pay for his actions (his homosexual lifestyle which she saw as a sin owing to her religious beliefs)"

We all know what Phil did next.

Re: The Aftermath of Bobby's First Kill

#15
Universal Polymath wrote:In the beginning of the episode, Tony makes it clear to Bobby that he feels that he can depend on Christopher less and less. While the heir apparent for several years now, Christopher’s lack of devotion – and diverging interests – have left Tony uncertain that his nephew can effectively carry the family after Tony’s gone. Unfortunately, this realization about Chris couldn’t have come at a worse time for Tony. He feels old and tired, and seems to recognize the end of his tenure as boss approaching rapidly. At a time when he feels the need to solidify someone in the position to take charge of the family, Tony feels that he must turn to someone else. And that someone turns to be his brother-in-law Bobby. His brother-in-law is a loyal, dependable soldier – a man whom Tony decides deserves more responsibility and a chance to step up.

However, the next responsibility Bobby is given is to commit murder, something he has managed to avoid for his entire life. Tony, feeling threatened and bitter about being beaten up by Bobby the night before, vindictively uses Bobby’s pride in never having killed another human being against him. And being the loyal person Bobby is, he commits the deed – despite his extreme desire not to. The act clearly shakes Bobby up. He isn’t a hardened killer like his peers, desensitized to even the most grizzly acts of violence. Bobby is hesitant and timid, as he not only commits an act he never wanted to do himself, but knew his father always wanted him to avoid as well. The episode ends with Bobby reuniting with his family, but through his warm smile, we can see a change in his face. He seems regretful, remorseful, and we see just how quickly one can be sucked into Tony Soprano's world of uncertainty, lament, and evil. And kudos to Steve Schirripa, by the way, as that thoughtful gaze he gives at the end is eerie as hell! Almost as strikingly hard and chilling as Gandolfini’s signature stare.

So what effect will taking another life have on Bobby's psyche now? He has been unquestionably devoted to the life in the past, but never at a time when he was put in such a compromising and psychologically-damaging situation. Will Bobby forever resent Tony for knowingly forcing him to “pop his cherry”? Will he attempt to gradually isolate himself from his boss, in an attempt to isolate himself from the possibility of having to commit such an act again? I can see Bobby – hopelessly rueful and troubled by the killing – begin to try to distance himself from the life. He was comfortable within that world, only as long as he never committed murder, but that is something he can no longer tell himself, which could really destroy him.

What effect will this change have on his new position in Tony’s eyes? Tony will most likely find Bobby too weak to carry on his legacy, and find Bobby as unsuitable for the position as Christopher. Of course, this would be a detrimental blow to Tony; what a terrible thing, to be on the way out without having anyone around him fit to take over. It would leave Tony in an extremely unfavorable position, made worse only by the fact that he will know it was his own actions – motivated by his trivial need for revenge – that brought about that position. Even as he tried to convince himself that Bobby was too weak and unfit, he would still struggle with his own part in his brother-in-law’s downfall. Who would be next in line, if not Christopher or Bobby? Silvio would appear to be next in line, but he discovered last year just how heavy the crown lies, when he proved to be in no way able to deal with the stress of being boss. Paulie? He is a great soldier, but I just could never picture him as the boss of the family (though I’m not exactly sure why not).

I believe this is the function the storyline will serve in the long run. This quiet, simple episode was merely a setup that showed us where Tony now is both mentally and physically, and in both regards he is becoming more and more exhausted. And as the realization that he has more years as boss behind him than ahead becomes clearer to him, the need to name and train an heir seems all the more urgent. But it is Tony’s own ill-treatment of his own men that will leave him alone and helpless. In this case, it was the need for revenge over a ridiculous fight that could leave Tony and Bobby’s relationship stressed beyond repair, and leaving the options for Tony’s successor even more limited than it already is.

Do you guys think I’m off-base? Could there be a more likely turn Bobby will take as a result of this? What exactly will his emotional response be to taking another man’s life for the first time?

Some interesting views there. I defintely think Tony is considering Bobby for potentially replacing Chris if needed down the road, and I have to wonder if perhaps now more than ever after he feels a certain sense of new-found respect for Bobby underneath all the shame and frustration. The kill for Bobby was as much to tie him to Tony (much as he did with Chris) as it is making Bobby do something he doesn't want to do as a way to get back at him.

As for Bobby, I am surprised really, that he has made it as far as he has in the mafia without a hit. If he is going to get higher up, then he needs to command respect. It appears he might be doing a little of that now. And do not discount Janice's role - I think we all know she want's Bobby to keep rising in the ranks. Were the opportunity open, she would love to be the Boss's wife. And with the way things seem to be moving between Tony and Chris, there is a void to be filled. I would have to admit, however, I would have never picked Bobby before. Who knows...maybe he's a changed man this time around.
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Re: The Aftermath of Bobby's First Kill

#16
What exactly will his emotional response be to taking another man’s life for the first time?


Well, DC could make these characters behave in any way he wants. But, assuming that the characters are somewhat realistic, I can't imagine Bobby going all to pieces after killing someone. He didn't seem to have much trouble going through with the actual act, did he? And we've seen Bobby do all kinds of threating and mob-like behavior in the past. Also, he loved his dad so much and his dad killed many many people and Bobby didn't ever seem to have any problem with that.

So, all in all, I don't think it's very realistic to expect Bobby to have any major problems carrying on.

If, however, he can't handle it, I would hope that the least he can do is to take out Janice on the way out.

I'm sorry to harp on this point. Many of you have probably seen that I strongly dislike the actress and really hate the character she plays. I see that many of you disapprove of these attitudes since you feel that AT is a very fine actress.

Well, I'll try to cool it and keep my negative opinions to myself. It's not that I'm afraid of expressing those attitudes. But I think that having expressed them a few times, it's probably just annoying to keep harping on it. So, thank you all for putting up with me and I'll try to wait until I have something actually factual or interesting to say before repeating my feelings about her again.

Re: The Aftermath of Bobby's First Kill

#17
I agree Bobby's been exposed to murder and death his whole life, but I'm just assuming it's one thing to see others kill and another to do it yourself. Early in the series, the characters discuss the significance their first has on them, in an attempt to comfort Christopher's worries about killing Emil Kolar. True, Chris got over that really quick, but everybody's different. Bobby has always struck me as a little 'softer' and more considerate than the other hardened criminals in their "social club". I don't know, maybe other people don't see Bobby in this way, but I've always liked him and saw him in a different light than the others in his circle.

Even if he's not emotionally broken, I think his response could be of anger and resentment towards Tony. Bobby, like Christopher, could begin to worry about getting caught for the murder, and he would undoubtedly blame Tony for his anxiety. I don't think Bobby would have time to blame himself for his own actions, that's not how these mobsters think. When the boss says "jump", they jump - Bobby feeling as though he had a choice in this matter is nonexistent. He'll blame Tony for ordering the hit more than he'd ever blame himself for actually committing it, and I can see this putting a strain on their relationship, at least for the time.

Splishak wrote:If, however, he can't handle it, I would hope that the least he can do is to take out Janice on the way out.


Hey, no need to apologize, and I found the way you put this quite funny! I'm not a huge fan of Janice either, and last night's episode reminded me why I didn't quite a few times.

Re: The Aftermath of Bobby's First Kill

#18
Bobby has always struck me as a little 'softer' and more considerate than the other hardened criminals in their "social club".


True dat. And, in addition, he also seemed to have this little "peculiar streak". I don't know how that might play out. But I have a hunch it may play out before the series ends.

You never can tell. But if any one of these guys decide to become "born again" and confess their sins as well as everybody else's sins, I would guess that jest might be little Bobby! Heh. Heh. Heh.

Say, Universal Polymath? Are you any relation to Proimagemaker? For some reason, your names just seem to sould awfully similar.

Re: The Aftermath of Bobby's First Kill

#20
Splishak wrote:Well, DC could make these characters behave in any way he wants. But, assuming that the characters are somewhat realistic, I can't imagine Bobby going all to pieces after killing someone. He didn't seem to have much trouble going through with the actual act, did he? And we've seen Bobby do all kinds of threating and mob-like behavior in the past. Also, he loved his dad so much and his dad killed many many people and Bobby didn't ever seem to have any problem with that.

So, all in all, I don't think it's very realistic to expect Bobby to have any major problems carrying on.

If, however, he can't handle it, I would hope that the least he can do is to take out Janice on the way out.

I'm sorry to harp on this point. Many of you have probably seen that I strongly dislike the actress and really hate the character she plays. I see that many of you disapprove of these attitudes since you feel that AT is a very fine actress.

Well, I'll try to cool it and keep my negative opinions to myself. It's not that I'm afraid of expressing those attitudes. But I think that having expressed them a few times, it's probably just annoying to keep harping on it. So, thank you all for putting up with me and I'll try to wait until I have something actually factual or interesting to say before repeating my feelings about her again.


Just remember -- she's SUPPOSED to be annoying. It helps us relate to the main characters. She doesn't just push their buttons, she pushes ours, too.

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