Re: New David Chase comments

#11
Guywithgun,
You are exactly right. "its all there" indicates a definite ending. Is Chase going to use language like that to indicate an ambiguous ending or "choose your own ending" or an ending open to interpretation? (i.e the "ambiguous endiing is "all there" for us to find!!??). That does not make much sense. He can just simply say "the ending is open to interpretation" or the "ending is what you bring to it" if that is the ending Chase meant to convey to the audience. What he is saying is to "look really carefully" to find it b/c "its all there". "Lost" has a reputation for mystery and being confounding and plots that go nowhere. These characteristics can also apply to the Sopranos but Chase is specifically saying it does not apply to the ending. This suggests there is nothing cryptic about the ending. However, we do have to "look really carefully" because as Chase said "we've shed light on everything". What he has "shed light on" and what we have to "look really carefully" to see will tell you the ending. This is where the POV pattern comes in. It is actually very simple but you have to "look really carefully" to see it. When you do see it you see that the final shot of blackness is Tony's POV. There is nothing really mysterious or ambiguous about it. The pattern is there and always will be (it is tangible and within the scene). Same goes for the Bacala flashback and "never hear it when it happens". There is nothing cryptic about it. It is a pretty obvious clue especially after you see exactly how Tony dies. Bacala's words corraborate the POV pattern and the sensation of Tony's death. Some claimed "its all there" simply means that the last time we see Tony he is alive so he survived. Chase now clears up the meaning of the statement with "if you look really carefully, it's all there" suggesting to us to look a little closer at the finale to find the answer.

badabellisima,
An homage to the Godfather or anything else does not have to be exactly literal to the scene in the film to make the point to the viewer. We all know MOG did not go into the bathroom to retrieve a gun. The fact that Tony's possible killer may have killed Tony after he came out of the bathroom is obvious enough a reference to get the point across (especially since the Godfather has been referenced so many times throughout the show). Chase also (in case he didnt get the point across) has Tony's dialogue echo Soluzzo's just before he is killed by Pacino (Soluzzo: "Best veal in the city", Tony: "best onion rings in the state"). The reference does not tell us Tony is killed. The scene itself and the blackout does that. What it does is add another interesting layer and further supports Chase's intention that the audience interpret the final scene as Tony's death.

Re: New David Chase comments

#13
The camera movement itself isn't the reference, but it does have the effect of dramatically revealing the Godfather reference (complete with a 1940s Men's room sign) only at the end of the move, giving MOG's and the camera's movements an emotional and surprising payoff. (for me the emotion was melancholy/joy. don't ask.)

In the Godfather, Michael going to the bathroom wasn't a surprise. So a tracking shot would have no real payoff like it did in the Sopranos. Especially since Michael even asks to go to the bathroom before doing so. And especially especially since that Godfather scene wasn't referencing itself. And if it was, holy cow.

Re: New David Chase comments

#14
Chase's quote was:

"If you look at the final episode really carefully, it’s all there,”

However, the discussion seems to have interpreted that as:

If you look at the final SCENE really carefully, it’s all there,”

Why?

I'm still bemused by the offer of water at the sitdown with Carmine and Butch.

water????
What the....

Re: New David Chase comments

#15
Chase's quote was:

"If you look at the final episode really carefully, it’s all there,”

However, the discussion seems to have interpreted that as:

If you look at the final SCENE really carefully, it’s all there,”

Why?


You are looking to deep into things. I think we can safely assume that he is talking about the fate of Tony Soprano. The final episode does contain the final scene. Everything is resolved before Holstens. He is talking about the ambiguous part, which is the final scene and whether Tony lives or dies. That is the question that sent the nation into an uproar. The question that people have been bothering Chase about when he makes his rare public appearances. The question everybody wants to know. I think we can safely assume he is not asking us to "look really carefully" to find out if AJ really wants to work in the film business or if Junior really did not remember Bacala in his conversation with Tony or any other minor point in the episode. Besides I think most people would frame the question to him this way "What happened to Tony in the final episode, did he live or die?". The article also says "what is the secret to the Sopranos finale?" before Chase gives his answer. He also could be saying that the clues to Tony's final fate can be found throughout the whole final episode.

I'm still bemused by the offer of water at the sitdown with Carmine and Butch.

water????


It is a wierd scene to say the least. I offer an interpretation of the scene in my analysis in the "Made in America" thread.

Re: New David Chase comments

#16
KiwiFan wrote:Chase's quote was:

"If you look at the final episode really carefully, it’s all there,”

However, the discussion seems to have interpreted that as:

If you look at the final SCENE really carefully, it’s all there,”

Why?

I'm still bemused by the offer of water at the sitdown with Carmine and Butch.

water????
What the....


Once again Kiwifan, you clarify the point in an excellent post. And about the water- it really is another important sub-point that we should explore more, but that gets overlooked because of the over-concentration on the meaning of the final scene. I do think the other "minor points" described by RA are in fact very important to informing the whole finale.

Re: New David Chase comments

#17
I think you're right Badabelle.

Richie said:

Everything is resolved before Holstens. He is talking about the ambiguous part, which is the final scene and whether Tony lives or dies.

I don't believe everything is resolved before Holstens. And other scenes can help provide information about the final scene. I foolishly didn't record the final episode, however from my memory of watching it once, I don't think the sitdown was quite as it seems. For example, I remember thinking at the time, when Tony was negotiating with Butch, and Butch didn't want to give Tony what he wanted, Carbine shot him a real "just give him what he wants" look, and Butch duly agreed to Tony's demands. I interpreted Carmine's look as "just give him what he wants, it doesn't matter, because he's going to be dead soon!!. We just want him to believe it's over, so we can cap him easier!!". Also, when they were negotiating compensation for Bobby's death, Butch said words to the effect of we'll discuss that later. Why? Because Butch knows there is no later for Tony. I don't actually know if Tony died or not, but this interpretation is just an example of how another scene in the last episode can help inform the ending in the final scene. I still don't get the offer of water though. It just doesn't belong, which makes me think there must be something more to it. I don't think it is there just to show Tony has trouble seeing things behind him. Why did it have to be bottled water??

Re: New David Chase comments

#18
I suspect that this thread is starting to resemble one that should be in the individual analysis of the last episode thread, so I will post here what I have posted in that thread, in an effort to shift this conversation to the appropriate thread:

I would like to propose a project for somebody to do, that isn't me because I am too busy/lazy, and I don't actually have a copy of the final episode.
I lecture Economics at a University in New Zealand, so I am familiar with what makes good research. Good research is NOT "I have formed this opinion (ie Tony gets shot in the head), and now I am going to look for evidence to support my theory". Any statitician can can manipulate/collect data to support a theory, whether that theory is actually correct or not. Research of that nature would never be accepted into an academic journal, or an academic conference. Good research presents ALL the data/information without prejudice, then presents a theory based on the evidence. Good research will also admit to the information/data that may refute their theory.

In response to Chase's comment which basically said it was all there in the last EPISODE, you just need to look carefully, I would like to see a "thesis" which summarises/describes every scene in the last episode without a preformed view. So each scene is analysed from the "what is this scene saying" point of view rather than the "what in this scene supports my view, and if there is nothing I won't talk about this scene" point of view. That way there would be much more discussion about overarching themes, rather than just did Tony die in Holstens (however, as a byproduct, many may find the answer to that question as a result of a scene by scene analysis).

I realise it may be unrealistic for one person to do this massive analysis. May as a group, maybe we could just attack each scene in order on here, giving our takes on each scene without prejudice?

What do you think? Does anyone have an interest in doing this, or is it in the too hard basket?

Re: New David Chase comments

#19
Say Kiwi- i just answered your duplicate post over in Sopranifesto as follows:

:icon_biggrin: Too hard basket?! KiwiFan, you crack me up! I would love it if all these brialliant posters here would focus down on this project with the discipline you suggest. It would keep us on track and help to come up with more insights. And you're right, we'd probably have to divy up the tasks since most of us won't have time to do the whole thing. There are lots of posts sprinkled throughout about different scenes, maybe those posters could re-organize and present them again scene by-scene. Sounds like a huge undertaking, but you started it off perfectly.

We could get/refer to/combine the other excellent post already done on this particular scene, since it opens the ep, and it will kick off the project. But how would we know when its time to move on to the next scene or subplot? i mean, would someone like, say, FOMW or DH, etc., decide when its time to stop re-hashing, but move on, etc.?

btw, seems like it would be easier to understand if you multi-quoted so we can follow who you are talking about in the links, then we can click on it and see the whole post, etc.. i mean, not that i know how to do it properly like everyone elsde does, so someone feel free to chime in and tell us how to properly multi quote. Alll i know is that i hit the "reply with quote" button, and the quote appears in my reply. But if i don't want the whole long quote, i just delete the parts carefully out after the brackets. but i'd still like to know how to do the multiple quotes within one post.
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Re: New David Chase comments

#20
KiwiFan - please don't duplicate posts from one thread to another. We try to keep conversations placed in either one place or another. In truth, any discussion of this should really be going on in the other threads for Made in America. We've been a bit easy going on this to simply help member participation, but it is simply too hard to have to move from one thread to another just to follow a line of conversation. Thanks.
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