Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#11
I was reminded of the scene in Season 1 or 2, after Tony passed on taking personal revenge on the soccer coach but instead had someone report him to the police -- Tony came home late at night, not angry but drunk, and we saw him fro the vantage of the stairs (Meadow's POV).

Then, he had done the good or right thing, didn't hurt anybody, etc. At the time it was a pretty huge step for him, with Melfi's advice, perhaps the first time he'd used non-Omerta means to resolve an issue.

Now, in another area, he does something he's likely never done before - passed on the chance to be unfaithful simply because it would be wrong. I saw the lashing out as a manifestation of the inner conflict, at least in the same ballpark as getting drunk.

Btw, last season he lied to Melfi about exhibiting self-control with Ade (it was a lie because he would have acted on it if he could), and she enthused that such a step was HUGE.

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Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#12
This scene was important for two reasons. First was the breakthrough of him denying himself sex when it was there for the taking. The other thing that isn't so obvious is that he was closing a deal to sell an egg store in the Italian neighborhood.

So you have the overt act of denying himself sexual pleasure to remain true to his wife and family. You also have the symbolic act of removing from his life this wholesaler of a item that means death and disaster in Tonys mob family.





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Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#13
byss said...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You also have the symbolic act of removing from his life this wholesaler of a item that means death and disaster in Tonys mob family. <hr></blockquote>
It's more than that. Remember how he looked at that old lady on the street? Almost with disgust... She and her old ways helped him make the decision to sell. Another sign for Tony that the times they are a-changing; especially, with him internally. What will be ironic is that at the end of the series, after he makes drastic changes, he ends up getting whacked because it was too little too late. He'll have to pay the piper... or the fanook skin-flute player...fugidaboudit

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=haironmelfistwat@thechaselounge>haironmelfistwat</A>
Image
at: 5/1/06 8:56 am

Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#14
i think he is slowly losing it all.first barones, then the throwup with artie, and now julianna enwrapped him and he lost the family property the poultry, which weighs even more regarding the importance of eggs in the sopranos.while he is yelling for focus left and right he is losing it himself because he acts short minded.now a point has come where he either breaks through and will try to get stuff back or get stuff organized or he will go down bad.his best men like paulie arent around him much anymore either it seems.
when he comes home and realizes how he has lost the poultry and with it a piece of his heart he is getting p*ssed...wonder if he stays p*ssed and gets his stuff back.
tony wants to be the nice finnerty but gets just ripped off, wonder if he will strike back big soon or die.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hrurusch>Hrurusch</A> at: 5/1/06 9:44 am

Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#15
<hr />It seems to me that Tony intentionally took a weak shot at Carm so that she could hit him back with much greater justification. Why? It stemmed from his guilt - his need to be punished by Carm and thereby even the score between them. It might be thought of as "the morally poor man's equivalent to a confession."

Even though he didn't go through with it, his guilt demanded that he suffer some kind of beating at her hands for even attempting to cheat on her.

It was a way he could feel OK about going back to his normal relationship with Carm. He attempted to cheat on her. She chewed him out good (albeit for some unrelated matter). Now Tony can feel they are even and everything can go back to normal.




</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=splishak>Splishak</A> at: 5/1/06 10:18 am

Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#16
don't forget how he told her he'd go for a real estate thing and she asks how it went and he is all so angry, this is a clearly controlled outbreak to show carmen he f*cked something big up, and she is getting it when she asks what the f. is up with him, wonder if those two talk about it...doubt it though since another woman is involved.
cant underline enough, how i see julianna only secondary here, important is how he lost the poultry.

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Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#17
Ed,
Good point!
I believe also his quickened breathing during the signing of the documents could have been anticipatory anxiety,due to the knowledge that his behavior was going to affect people in a negative way.Tony is not used to accepting accountability,denying instant gratification;so it doesn't feel good.Then he goes home to Carmela with an attitude and screams at her as though she's directly the cause of his self denial.The fact that she didn't replace his "acceptable food" fast enough was a metaphore for Carmela being responsible for Tony's better behavior.

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Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#18
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It seems to me that Tony intentionally took a weak shot at Carm so that she could hit him back with much greater justification. Why? It stemmed from his guilt - his need to be punished by Carm and thereby even the score between them. It might be thought of as "the morally poor man's equivalent to a confession."

Even though he didn't go through with it, his guilt demanded that he suffer some kind of beating at her hands for even attempting to cheat on her.<hr></blockquote>

That is a brilliant analysis, splishak. Very insightful. It kind of dovetails in a way with something SofiaG stated:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I am worried that when the Madonna complex surrounding Carm stops---"She's a saint, she nursed me to health, stood by me"....and she does something to piss him off or gives him an excuse, he's going to stray again.<hr></blockquote>

Wonder if it could be an unconcious desire to antagonize her into a fight so that he could cheat in the future without the pangs of conscience?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Remember that line in Melfi's office, how could I stray after all she's done for me? Well, he would have boinked her in a heartbeat after the first meeting in Satriale's, with all that life's too short verbal foreplay--it's just that she said no.<hr></blockquote>

SG, I think he was very set to boink her on the night of the signing too, despite noticeable anxiety or discomfort at the impending betrayal. It's open to debate, but had she not unbuttoned the shirt, I think he would have unhesitatingly continued. I think he would have felt like absolute $hit afterwards, but I think, in the moment, he would have continued. The hands on the buttons are what made his conscience scream out "Carm!" so loud that not even his "baguette" could drown it out.

This need to "justify" betrayal reminds me of two things, first from In Camelot. Tony first took the position that Livia drove his dad into the arms of "all his women" in order to get something he couldn't get at home . . . love, support, etc. Melfi tries to make him ascribe at least some blame to Johnny, that all his lies and betrayals couldn't be justified. Tony couldn't go that far outwardly, but, inside, you could see him starting to accept the truth of his father's guilt by episode end.

It's typically myopic of him that Tony never turned the question back on himself and asked what Carmela did or didn't do that could have justified HIS betrayals of her. Whatever their problems were before the separation, Tony could never in a million years have reasonably equated Carm's behavior toward him with Livia's behavior toward Johnny. Despite their ups and downs, Carmela consistently exhibited real love and caring for him, particularly at the most telling moments ("you're going to hell when you die" the lone exception).

And he certainly can't question the depth or authenticity of her love at this point. So whatever irrational "no love" justifications he may have spun for past betrayals, those have disintegrated after the shooting.

The other thing that comes to mind on the justification front is the stuff from last night about AJ not being an "aphrodisiac" for him and Carm. He likened the problems with AJ to giving off a bad smell in the house.

Tony clearly looked like he was feeling pretty good about sex with Carmela during the act. He even let out a laugh, as if he couldn't believe how great it was.

His demeanor changed when Carm used the word "nice" to describe it, like she did not experience the intensity he just felt (and we know there was unfortunately an omitted "did you come" line in there from the season preview – and it’s actually a good question, because I tend to think she didn’t). So was it his insecurity about how much Carmela was getting from it that was speaking when he made the aphrodisiac comment to Melfi? Or was it just his feeble attempt to justify in advance the affair he knew he was pursuing with Juliana?

Or, perhaps, did Melfi's question hit home: "Do you blame Carmela for AJ?" He had to think about it for a minute and looked less than fully resolute when he answered “no”.

If he does blame her, why? From Test Dream and Calling All Cars, we know that Tony really puts a lot of the “blame” for who he is on Carm. She is driving his father’s car (his mob lifestyle). She is the one leading the “mob” ala Frankenstein, so she is the ringleader in creating the “monster” (mobster) that is Tony Soprano. In his NDE, Carm gave him his real (Tony Soprano) briefcase, which analogizes to her providing him with a tool for his trade or “the life” he lived as Tony.

So does he blame her for not holding him to the high moral standards she hypocritically claims to embrace? Does he blame her for his inability thus far to change, with the consequence that he could not be a better role model for his son? Is he merely projecting onto Carmela the blame he places on his mother for the way HE turned out?

And here I'm not just talking about the psychological scars that result from having a narcisstic mother that doesn't love you. For some reason, I've been very mindful this season of the revelations of Fortunate Son and the fact that Tony had his first panic attack when he saw his mother get turned on (express "love") by meat that came from a man Tony's father had just chopped the finger off of. Tony even stated that meat days were probably the only days Johnny ever got laid because it was the only time Livia was in a good mood and receptive.

I think the obvious connection here is that, in seeking that which was always denied to him -- a loving mother -- he pursued the lifestyle (mob guy collecting debts with violent force) that elicited the strongest reactions of approval or "love" from his mother toward his father. And in Carm, he found a woman who actually loves him genuinely but who we know is also turned on, if not by the fruits of his violence, by the fact of the exceptional masculine power that accounts for his success in those pursuits. So there seems an ample parallel for Tony to project resentment not only for Carmela's own part in making him who he is but for Livia's part, as well.

All of which could lead back to marital betrayal being a mechanism for hurting his mother, i.e., justified.

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Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#19
"I think the obvious connection here is that, in seeking that which was always denied to him -- a loving mother -- he pursued the lifestyle (mob guy collecting debts with violent force) that elicited the strongest reactions of approval or "love" from his mother toward his father. And in Carm, he found a woman who actually loves him genuinely but who we know is also turned on, if not by the fruits of his violence, by the fact of the exceptional masculine power that accounts for his success in those pursuits. So there seems an ample parallel for Tony to project resentment not only for Carmela's own part in making him who he is but for Livia's part, as well."

EXACTLY, FOMW.... nail on the head, there.

Another small point. Opening scene--Tony and Carm going at it....first words out of her mouth? "Are you okay?" Or something like that.

There was something.....and I don't want to go all Oedipal...
mother-y about that. Likewise, when she's buttoning his shirt, there's something mothering in the way she says "There's my handsome man".

I don't know why I'm getting this mom vibe. I was flashing back to my mom zipping up my snowsuit or something. I also don't know where I'm going with this...but I do know that the Juliana Skiff sex was panty ripping hot bunny sex (or was gonna be), not the standard missionary wham-bam thank ya ma'am sex. So what does Carm need to do? Start talking to Live Tony like she did to Coma Tony (that you turn me on stuff)....couldn't hurt. We'll see. Can't wait til next week.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p098.ezboard.com/bthechaselounge.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sofiagiovanna>SofiaGiovanna</A> at: 5/1/06 1:21 pm

Re: Why was Tony so angry after he stopped the Juliana sex?

#20
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I don't know why I'm getting this mom vibe.<hr></blockquote>

Cause there's always been a heavy mom vibe about the way Carmela nurtures or takes care of Tony. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

It's been especially heavy this season, what with her ministering to him so faithfully after the shooting. She even spells it out in ep 5 when he is ready for his first day back at work. She was nervous like she was sending a 5 year-old off for his first day of kindergarten. "Gosh, I feel like a mommy," said with obvious tone of anxiety.

I used to be of the opinion that Tony had a madonna/whore type complex with Carm where he felt overtones of mother/son incest in sex with her, thus his desire for other "outlets". But he's always had what looked like highly satisfying sex with her at times through the years, with the frequency apparently greatly picking up between seasons 5 and 6. So if such was ever a problem for him, he seems to have gotten over it.

On the other hand, his sex with Carm has never looked like the wild romps he's had with whores and goomars, nor should it in most respects, I suppose.

SofiaG, your missionary position remark reminds me of something I questioned a time or two long ago. We know that Tony historically didn't . . . you know . . . very much with respect to Carm. That may have changed some, judging from Members Only. But did she, does she, ever reciprocate? I'm reminded that in Pax Soprano, Tony dreams a composite character is under the covers giving him 'capo'. He assumes it's his goomar, cause she has her voice, but she has Melfi's face, and the entire act takes place in a revamped Tony/Carm bedroom with black satin sheets and tons of lit candles (the epitome of hot sex). When he sees it's Melfi's face, he turns in-dream toward Carmela's side of the bed literally STUNNED, then wakes up and repeats the gesture in life, like he has to make sure that it wasn't really Carmela on the lollypop.

Maybe a vibe that either she isn't that kind of partner or he doesn't want her to be that kind of partner because it's too . . . degrading and nasty for a mother figure to be doing such things.(?)

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