Re: Tony Will Never Be the Same

#21
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>if tony becomes religious im throwing out my TV.....seriously.

but when tony snaps out of this i'll bet my last two nickles that the first thing he says isn't "I NEED TO QUIT THE MAFIA....ITS ALL SO CLEAR NOW...I FOUND GOD....IVE BEEN WRONG ALL ALONG...CARMELLA I NEVER APPRICIATED YOU." <hr></blockquote>

Mr. Gebowitz, I wouldn't bet that either. Why would you expect a show best known for the extreme care, nuance, realism, complexity, and intelligence of its writing to suddenly interpose a complete and simplistic character shift? Wouldn't you expect that Tony's change, if there is to be one, will evolve over the remaining 18 episodes and that this near death event will serve merely as a catalyst for that gradual chemical reaction?

And why is the idea of a profound religious experience so off-putting to you? Plenty of people on death row who've committed completely reprehensible murders have had life-changing religious experiences that enabled them to accept both their guilt and their foregiveness. "Dead Man Walking" portrays one such true story.

What more compelling, dramatic illustration of the power and breadth of divine grace and unconditional divine love could there be than in the redemption of a mob boss, a man who's made a life of using, stealing from, terrorizing, and killing other people? And wouldn't it seem unrealistic to you if Tony emerges from this whole experience without changing at all, without becoming more introspective, more troubled, more conflicted, and less committed to his old way of life? Near-death experiences are catalysts in every culture in every corner of the globe for life change. I don't expect Tony to escape that just because he's a New Jersey don.

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Re: Tony Will Never Be the Same

#22
i don't care about religious theology and catholocisms notions of forgivness and salvation. this man has destroyed countless lives....repenting a bit will NOT change that.

i said this before. its funny because i read your posts and you are very articulate....but all i really see is a little girl (one of millions) who has a crush on tony soprano and has a pathetic little fantasy about "saving him" or wanting to watch him be "saved".



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Re: Tony Will Never Be the Same

#23
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>i don't care about religious theology and catholocisms notions of forgivness and salvation. this man has destroyed countless lives....repenting a bit will NOT change that.<hr></blockquote>

I think Catholicism has been unfairly interjected into many of the threads here because of the (unfortunate?) use of the term "purgatory" and because Tony was nominally raised as an Italian Catholic. But I don't think any of what Tony experiences or ultimately believes will be driven by denominational ideosyncracies. The notion of forgiveness and salvlation is Christian, not just Catholic.

Of course his repenting won't change any of the lives he's had a hand in destroying. That's not what contrition is about. It's about the spiritual housecleaning that has to be done to make room for the foregiveness and redemption that we all are granted as a matter of grace, not right. No one "earns" redemption by living a good life or forfeits it by living a bad one. It's everyone's for the asking.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr>i said this before. its funny because i read your posts and you are very articulate....but all i really see is a little girl (one of millions) who has a crush on tony soprano and has a pathetic little fantasy about "saving him" or wanting to watch him be "saved".<hr></blockquote>

Well if you equate coming to love a character despite his serious flaws and endeavoring to understand his darker motivations as having a "crush", then I have a crush. If you equate excitement over the dramatic treatment of his spiritual crisis and possible awakening as a "pathetic fantasy about saving him", again, guilty as charged.

But that would also mean that I have the same crush on Carmela, since I care just as deeply about her salvation; that David Chase apparently has the same crush on both of them; and that God has the same crush and pathetic fantasy regarding us all. I can live with that comparison.

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Re: Tony Will Never Be the Same

#24
But all this "redemption" stuff....that’s a religious concept.

A show as mainstream as The Sopranos would NOT end their series with a fundamentally religious conclusion simply because it would upset too many people and alienate too many fans. They might have religious characters or even religious themes but not a religious ending

But that’s not even my main beef with what you want to happen. It has nothing to do with religion really. It’s just you seem to want an ending where Tony Soprano, a career fucking criminal is going to be cast in a VERY POSTIVE light after he undergoes some sort of spiritual transformation where he magically realizes his sins and properly atones for them. You’re making him out to be some sort of folk hero. Do you know what kind of message that would send? He’s a criminal and you talk about him like he’s a science experiment. He kills someone. And you talk about his relationship with his Mother and how you want to see the “good” in him rise to the surface. Meanwhile that other person is still dead!

You have to remember we have ALL have been charmed by Tony Soprano. We like him. That’s why we watch the show. But that does not change the fundamental fact that Tony Soprano is scum. Things are not black and white yes I realize this. He cares passionately about his family, friends, etc but he is still the same person who runs an organization that’s primary purpose is to suck the money out of hard working tax paying citizens. This show has a certain responsibility in a way to make Tony pay for what he has done. Weather he gets killed or goes to jail or whatever, I wont even attempt to predict, but his ending can NOT be a positive one. David Chase is too intelligent to just serve this redemption fantasy on a platter for the purposes of sheer audience gratification on behalf of the 50 million women who are obsessed with Tony Soprano. Tony’s ending will not be positive whatever it is. It cant be



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tony

#26
Mr Gebowitz

Yes, Tony Soprano is a career criminal and yes, he has done Very Very VERY bad things.

And he is charming.

I know that this is on a different thread but to me, the doctors in "Join the Club" were absolute, unmitigated asses not only in terms of bedside manner but in procedure. Un-surgical-masked relatives lingering around a gaping stomach wound? Forget it!!!! Not telling the relative a drug that the patient is on? FORGET IT!

I think that Tony will make a full physical recovery (ala Vito Corleone...slow but sure)....but I do think that despite all of his epic affairs and evil deeds, he is a deep thinker and I do think that he will turn to both Melfi and maybe, who knows, God, and maybe not permanently....we'll see. This is a man who is bothered by the life he leads....it affects him physically and mentally.....we'll see...

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Re: Tony Will Never Be the Same

#27
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>A show as mainstream as The Sopranos would NOT end their series with a fundamentally religious conclusion simply because it would upset too many people and alienate too many fans.<hr></blockquote>

I disagree with every assertion in this statement. If the Sopranos seems "mainstream", it's only in hindsight and mostly because a dedicated press following keeps its media profile extremely high. It was passed on by every mainstream network (who consider fare like "ER" and "West Wing" great television). Even Chase and his closest creative collaborators on the pilot felt there was absolutely, positively no way this show would be made into a series, let alone become the enormous cultural phenomenon it's become.

At the end of the day, HBO risked their dime on the whole experiment, so you can conclude that someone there sensed the show's potential resonance. However even they knew they were catering essentially to a niche market, a demographic that's already inclined to seek alternatives to "mainstream" drama, else they wouldn't be subscribing to HBO in the first place. So they weren't banking on having to sell it to people who are automatically turned off by incessant cursing and graphic violence (which is still a pretty substantial number of people) or who don't want particularly heavy or heady drama.

Look at the ratings for the season opener. They were down from recent season openers and were more than doubled by a REAL mainstream show that -- while I've never watched it -- carries all the hallmarks of the kind of fluff (I'm being kind) that big networks trot out to please the masses.

The Sopranos is mainstream only to the extent that it is so singularly intelligent, multi-faceted, and preoccupied at its deepest levels with the timeless questions of mankind that it will inspire an extremely passionate and dedicated following and will, of course, still be watched and talked about when stuff like "Desperate Housewives" have lost even footnote status.

Precisely because the show isn't mainstream and because its creator has full control to take the show wherever HE wants, you can't rule out any particular ending scenario on the basis of who or how many it will alienate. He's already risked alienating many viewers by killing beloved characters, making his central character do incredibly revolting things, and taking the audience deep into the character's subconscious mind, even though loud protestations by a segment of the audience always follow.

And in the practical sense, he has nothing to fear. His contract is set, the production will continue on the final 8 episodes regardless of how these 12 are received, and he will retain control of the characters' destiny no matter how many new subscritptions HBO does or doesn't generate in the coming weeks. He is constrained in this regard only to the extent that he is primarily motivated to achieve audience favor rather than his own favor and that of his closest collaborators. While I've no doubt he would like everyone to like his ending, I don't believe it's anywhere close to being his guiding ethic.

In the scant comments he's made on the subject, Chase's beliefs regarding God, Christ, etc., seem very ambivalent and conflicted. He once even fielded a question as to whether Tony Soprano believed in God as if it were asked of him personally and professed that he couldn't separate the two questions. That tells me that there is likely to be ambiguity and far more spiritual questions than answers in Tony Soprano's fate. And despite my euphoria over Chase deigning to represent an alter-reality with these religious overtones, I'm still far from convinced that there is real redemption in Tony Soprano's future. I hope for it and feel it's much closer than it was 2 seasons ago, but I'm not banking on it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It’s just you seem to want an ending where Tony Soprano, a career fucking criminal is going to be cast in a VERY POSTIVE light after he undergoes some sort of spiritual transformation where he magically realizes his sins and properly atones for them. You’re making him out to be some sort of folk hero. Do you know what kind of message that would send?<hr></blockquote>

Ignoring for the moment the inaccuracies of your summary of my feelings on the matter, the message it would send, I hope, has nothing to do with Tony Soprano and everything to do with the Almighty power that would enable a man like him to experience such a transformation and find (and accept) forgiveness and unconditional love of an infinite magnitude. The message would, I hope, have everything to do with the excrutiating beauty that inheres in the sacrifice of Christ and the notion that he willingly embraced an unspeakably hideous earthly death to save even people like Tony Soprano.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>David Chase is too intelligent to just serve this redemption fantasy on a platter for the purposes of sheer audience gratification on behalf of the 50 million women who are obsessed with Tony Soprano. Tony’s ending will not be positive whatever it is. It cant be<hr></blockquote>

Mr Geb, if you'll refrain from making inaccurate and demeaning assumptions about me and my sensibilities (in this thread and elsewhere), I will refrain from making them about you. Fair enough?

Back on topic, I think you have either not read or have disregarded the many posts I've made over the years that embrace an ending of immense suffering and tragedy for Tony. I'm just as susceptible to the human need for justice, karmic balance, etc., as the next person. And I would be as disappointed as you if Tony changes his way of life and lives "happily ever after." Of course I'm positive that won't happen, so I don't spend much time contemplating the prospect.

That is entirely distinct from a desire to see the good within him (read: love, divine influence, etc.) triumph over the evil. To me the perfect ending would be for him to change, to finally get his crap together and become closer to the Tony Soprano of his limbo coma and to then lose his family by some force that his evil way of life set in motion. It would be all the more compelling if he consciously makes a choice in his limbo state to return to life and accept a horrible fate (the Alzheimer's allusion) for the sake of his son's welfare and the needs of his closest family.

Can't help it if it sounds a little Godfather III. I'm sure Chase can find a way to make it totally original.




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Re: Tony Will Never Be the Same

#30
Three words:

Watch. the. trailer.

He looks perfectly fine to me, in numerous scenes with Carmela and with others in it.
============================

That doesn't mean a thing. A bunch of scenes from "Join the Club" were also in the trailer, and Tony obviously wasn't "fine" then.

I think, in fact, that every single scene with a healthy Tony will be a flashback/dream sequence. There is no way that Tony is up and about before 6-8 months of recovery, if at all...

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