This show was the beginning of Tony's downfall

#1
Never before had Tony Soprano killed one of his own relatives. He was not a blood relative of Big Pussy or Jackie Jr. or any of the other people who's deaths he's ordered. This was the first time he killed a member of his Family. So it was a significant moment when he killed Tony B.

I think what we got from the dream was that it wasn't too late for Tony to redeem himself. That he could still have a change of heart, and be like Scrooge on Christmas morning (the film clip they showed) and turn good and save his Family. What we saw was that Tony S made the wrong choice. He was in the end staring at that painting in the dumpster, seeing the image of himself in the general's uniform, and got obsessed with the role he was playing. Suddenly he wanted to be a General more than he wanted to be a good man. So he goes and kills Tony B, in what was a truly tragic moment.

Tony has killed a blood relative now. He is now beyond redemption, beyond saving. The whole season had a theme of "Tony as a man", the conflict between Tony's good side and Tony's dark side. Tony's dark side, the side that is the Bear, wins out.

So we know now that the show can't have a happy ending, like Scrooge on Christmas Day, because Tony has let the dark side of his soul control him. Tony, as we saw at the end of the show as he comes in through the woods and climbs over the fence into his backyard, has turned into the Bear.

The season started when Carmela chasing the Bear away and protecting her son. The season ends with the Bear (Tony) coming back, and this time Carmela lets him into the house. It was not a happy ending. It was a very dark ending. The Bear is in the house now. The family is doomed.

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I agree to an extent

#3
I agree that his dark side won out, and in a humane manner, he certainly didn't do the right thing. But the issue is that Tony accepted a role as the mob boss of New Jersey, and he was going to have to make decisions using his head, not his heart.

That is what he finnally did in the finale after making emotionally flawed decisions regarding the naming of Christopher as a captain; killing off Ralph out of rage, despite Ralph being a good earner; sparing Feech's life; sparing Christopher's life; sparing Blundetto's life, and being willing to put his men on a suicide mission for the wrong cause.

And to that end, there had been a lot of rumblings from people within his camp over his decision making. Namely, Paulie, Chris and Silvio over the past two seasons, and obviously everyone else was unhappy with the situation that Tony put his "family" through in the finale.

However, at the end of this season, his post seems secure if not stronger than ever because as you said, he had to kill someone that was closer to him than anybody before.

I'm not sure what that means for his other "family" life. It seems like it's square at the moment, but that's what makes this series finale so intriguing, because Tony is seemingly on top of things with ten episodes still to go.

You just know that there is something fishy about that fact.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p196.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=furio@sopranolandforum>Furio</A> at: 6/7/04 1:21 pm

Re: This show was the beginning of Tony's downfall

#6
That is what he finnally did in the finale after making emotionally flawed decisions regarding the naming of Christopher as a captain

Christopher was not made a Captain. He was made "acting Captain" of Paulie's crew until Paulie got back out of jail. Big difference. Chris is not a capo now, he is just a soldier

I think this episode sets up next season perfectly. Tony has made his choice. His dark side has won out. So next season, in the last ten episodes, we probably get to see the complete destruction of both of Tony's families. Tony may still flip, or otherwise try to redeem himself in some other way, but it will be too late. He had his chance after that dream. The dream laid everything out and he didn't listen. He made the wrong choice.

Which is classic Shakespeare. In Shakespearean tragedies, which the Sopranos is, the lead characters (Hamlet, Macbeth) are deeply conflicted about choices they have to make, and inevitably make either the wrong choice, or the right choice too late. Either way they doomselves and they die in the end.

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RE: This Show Was The Beginning of Tony's Downfall

#7
Very interesting observations, MadScorpion. I think there is a lot of validity to this theme. Clearly, 'The Test Dream' was Tony's darkest moment this season. We saw him at his lowest, looking into the abyss, and trying to figure some way back out. On it's surface, 'All Due Respect' ended, surprisingly, very upbeat, even before the unexpected twist of JS's arrest by the FBI. Once Tony killed Blundetto, the immediate weight of his conflict with Johnny Sack was lifted, and we could see Tony return to his more dominating persona (especially apparent during his meeting at JS's house just before the arrest. Tony was clearly, in my mind, back in top form there).

However, I'll offer a different viewpoint. True, Tony killed a blood relative -- something we haven't seen before. However, didn't Blundetto play a large part in his own end? He acted so recklessly, and then fled the area, leaving others to bear the consequences of his reckless actions. Whether he was justified or not in killing Peeps or Phil Leotardo's brother, the bottom line is that, in his own words, he left a "s***-storm" for Tony to deal with. Benny already got beaten within an inch of his life, who knows who would be the next person to catch hell for Blundetto's actions.

It could be argued that Tony's act of killing his cousin, as agonizing as it was for him, was the result of Tony acknowledging a responsibility larger than his own immediate family. It could be that Tony didn't make the wrong decision, if it meant that others who bore no responsibility for Blundetto's actions would avoid being harmed. This is a very skewed view of ethics, I know, but this action all takes place in the bizarre world of organized crime, so I'm not applying normal rules, but he rules of 'soldiers,' as Tony has mentioned to Melfi during their sessions. Frankly, I don't know what option Tony had. Offer himself up to Phil Leotardo? Cooperate with the Feds? In my opinion, Blundetto left Tony Soprano very few choices, and had Tony continued to protect Blundetto from the consequences of his reckless actions, it probably would have spelled his demise as well.

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Re: RE: This Show Was The Beginning of Tony's Downfall

#8
Never before had Tony Soprano killed one of his own relatives. He was not a blood relative of Big Pussy or Jackie Jr. or any of the other people who's deaths he's ordered.


But do you guys cook dinner as you watch the show?

After Jackie Jr. robbed the card game Tony sat down with Ralphie and told him that the decision was his to make as it was his card game, Tony implied that Jackie Jr should be given a pass, "but he should know".

One reason that Tony reacted as he did was because he pulled the same exact stunt many years ago. What Tony didn't know was that Ralphie had told this story to Jackie Jr. so for Ralph it was as if Jackie Jr. had spit in his face. His pride could not let go off it so he had Jackie Jr. clipped.

Someone already mentioned that Tony had put out a hit on Uncle Junior, but he also went to his mother's "retirement community" prepared to choke her to death after he heard the FBI tapes of her conversations between her and Uncle Junior.

I don't think this is the start of his downfall in anyway. I don't think it hurts him anymore than when he killed Pussy. He's the boss and he had to do what needed to be done.

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Re: RE: This Show Was The Beginning of Tony's Downfall

#9
Christopher was not made a Captain. He was made "acting Captain" of Paulie's crew until Paulie got back out of jail. Big difference. Chris is not a capo now, he is just a soldier

That's fine, but he WAS named captain at that time when he should not have been. Patsy Parisi had a legitimate gripe. And as you will recall, so did Silvio.

The point of that move was that he was trusting Christopher more, and in fact was running a lot of things through him.

He's the boss and he had to do what needed to be done.

Yup. And the hit on Junior simply didn't go through. Tony pulled the trigger, though.

That was the difference with Tony at that point, though.

I think the simple factor is that Tony was struggling as a MOB BOSS for a good bit of time, and he seems to have finnally regained his composure.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p196.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=furio@sopranolandforum>Furio</A> at: 6/8/04 9:57 am
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