Camelot

#51
Hi,
What episode were you people watching? The one I saw was a boring waste of time. In fact, since the middle of season four, with a few exceptions, the show has really gone down hill. NOTHING is going on.
Who cares about the mistress? While it may fill out some information, did we need almost a whole episode about her?
Since there's relatively few shows left to wrap this whole saga up, why would Chase waste one of the shows just on her?
As far as Tony and Carm getting back together, why would she take him back? She's smart enough to know, you are who you are and you're not going to change.
I used to really like the show and looked forward to it, but with mostly lame episodes and the year long gaps between seasons, I really don't care much anymore. I think Chase made the right decision to end it in season 6; it's run it's course.
BRG,
DeltaDart

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Re: Tony's disillusionment with his father

#52
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>For the man character to have revelations that challange his entire thought process, including how he hands out "blame" among his parents is just huge. Huge. <hr></blockquote>

Absolutely agreed!

And what I think a lot of people are missing is that this ep is really a bookend to the Where's Johnny ep that everyone loved so much. In that ep, we heard how picqued and eventually outraged Tony became when Janice observed that Livia had a lot of help from ungrateful children and spouse to become the witch she was. In their fight, he screams at Janice that she is just like Livia and would do to Bobby what Livia did to Johnny, as if his dad was just this great loving, family guy who was helplessly and unilaterally a victim of spousal abuse.

Now the luster is coming off that pedastal. Not only was his father emotionally unfaithful to his wife and willing to risk her dying alone in the hospital while he shacked up with his girlfriend, he was emotionally unfaithful to HIM . . . to TONY. He gave away his dog, and to the son of his mistress yet, and lied about it.

The extent to which Tony is able to reject his father as a role model and gain some kind of understanding of his mother (which is the antecedent to forgiveness) is significant in judging how much personal growth is in his future. An episode which shows him doing both (with typical 2 steps forward, 3 steps back "progress") is therefore VERY important in this character's evolution.

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Re: Camelot

#53
Here is my take, I thought that the intro of Fran is an interesting idea, but I was disappointed with the execution, we really didn't need 17 minutes of her boring stories... They could have effectively introduced her in a more entertaining way...

As for the "sub-plots"

Chris-AA Buddy - Why the hell should I care about his AA buddy we never met before or will ever see again? Give me a reason to care about him and I would be interested...

Junior - Funerals - I thought it was fairly amusing, but unnecessary...


Why did Steve Buscemi sign up for that part again?

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Re: Camelot

#54
Rightfielder, I totally agree. The AA buddy was too much like the David Scatino crap. I didn't care for the whole mistress thing.......who cares really? Is there going to more to the story? Will there be more to the story with Wegler? Will there be more to the story with Feech? Will there be more to the story with Tony B. and Lil Kim?

Im tired off all these sub-plots going nowhere special.........



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Re: Camelot

#55
FlyMelfi

Nicely said! I could see he was hurt when he realized the consequences of his dad?s actions toward his ma & toward him. He is starting to get a clearer understanding of his own behavior.

Summer

You mentioned the flow of the last 2 episodes. Interesting point. Both episodes give a more in-depth view of Tony & Carm & their emotionally struggles.


OldMaid


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This episode was great.

#56
I really liked this episode. I don't understand the complaining about "subplots". People, this show isn't plot-driven, it's CHARACTER DRIVEN. I thought that some people would've noticed that during these four years, but I guess I was wrong. And BTW, this show isn't about Johnny Sack vs. Little Carmine, it's about Tony.

The Johnny's girlfriend-plot was exellent. I didn't think that Tony would ever question the "goomar-tradition", but this proved me wrong. That was great character-development. Some people think that this was bad writing, or that they "focused too much on that storyline", well I don't.

This episode was a great example of the show's exellent writing. I don't think that anyone would've said that the episode had bad writing if Phil Leotardo had whacked Little Carmine or something like that.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=eruptus@sopranolandforum>eruptus</A> at: 4/19/04 5:49 pm

stop trying to make this episode look good

#57
We all wait for a week for a new episode and when they're good, and they usually are, everyone's ready to praise them, but this episode, though it might have revealed character, showed no inventiveness at all. Chirstopher enabling the AA guy could have been a lot more clever than the poker game. (luring him, finding out he's rich, discovering what buttons to push, etc.) Also the junior funeral thing seemed ridiculous. If he's gonna fake anything he should faking seeing doctors, specialists all over the country, etc. Johnny's goomar was painful to watch, not in a heart wrenching way, but in a poorly written, poorly cast way. Plus is would've been much more exciting and much more revealing to have her with Junior, (reveal he's a liar about his love life), Hesh, see him squirm about money, even Paulie who probably knows her from the old days, but dinner after dinner with Tony clearly starting driving everyone crazy. The "Happy Birthday" scene was possibly the worst scene and maybe the jump the shark moment of the series. This show is better than that. It was obviously lazy writing. Can anyone tell me one genuinely funny moment from last night? Something you'd call you friends to talk about? So please stop defending this episode. IT SUCKED!



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Re: Tony's disillusionment with his father

#59
I think Tony's conversation with Dr. Melfi about his father's being with his goomar when his mother was miscarrying in the hospital was a seminal event in the series as a whole. It was the first time Tony seemed to have ever considered how moral it is to have women on the side. Yes, he rationalized by saying that his mother's harpy attitude drove his father into the arms of other women, but surely he realizes deep down that Livia's b!tchy personality aside, his father would have cheated on her anyway. I think Melfi should have pointedly asked Tony, "You say your mother drove your father into that woman's arms. Do you mean to tell me you believe your father wouldn't have cheated on her if she had been a nicer person?"

Had she asked that, Tony would have been forced to confront that fact. Because God knows that Carmela has been infinitely better a wife to Tony than Livia ever was to Johnny Boy. But did that stop Tony from screwing around on Carmela?

That's the type of hard question Tony may very well start asking himself now. For the very first time, he expressed moral distaste for a mob man's cheating on his wife with a goomar--and his own father, to boot. I think the most important psychological thing to come out of this episode will be that Tony will start to reconsider the desirability of his womanizing lifestyle, and start to understand just why his own cheating hurt Carmela so much, her own understanding of what kind of mind he was notwithstanding.

The big question is, could things like this ever possibly lead Tony to adopt a monogamous attitude and lifestyle, particularly in trying to reconcile with Carmela?

And second of all--would Carmela ever believe it, given how much he has lied about it before? That's the real problem: even if Tony honestly and truly did become monogamous--which would be hard enough to begin with, if only because he's so used to being a c**zehound and because his Mafia lifestyle almost requires it--it seems impossible that Carmela could ever possibly trust him again. He'd be like the boy who cried wolf at this point. That's why I'm sure he and Carmela will never, NEVER return to the status quo ante.


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Re: Tony's disillusionment with his father

#60
Another point. Is anyone else in love with the exquisitely artistic ways in which scenes of violence are crafted and filmed on this show? I loved the scene where Tony runs Phil Leotardo into the truck in his car, then approaches him, feigning concern, then grabs his head and shakes it. It was a definite throwback to the pilot episode--remember that scene when Tony runs over the gambling debtor with Chris' Lexus, then approaches him afterward, saying, "You all right?" And the guy's screaming "You broke my leg--look, the bone's showing!" And Tony says, "Oh, really? Let me see it"--and then he punches the guy right in the leg, and as the guy screams in agony Tony yells, "I'll give you a f*ckin' bone, you prick! Where's my f*ckin' money?"

CLASSIC!!! Tony is still the MAN!!!

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