Re: re

#11
Almost every character on the Sopranos is depraved or flawed in some way. Chris has been labeled many things on this board while sympathy and even compassion has been shown to other characters who have done far worse in terms of death and destruction of lives. It seems that people are upset due to the fact that we are able to see the devastating effect that Chris's actions have on those around him. I wonder if we were able to witness the effect that Paulie's killing of his mothers Friend had upon her family and Friends would Paulie be as revered or loved. The same point can be made for almost every character on the show who is directly involved in family business.the point is that every one from Tony to Bobby has destroyed lives in untold ways and the only difference between them and Chris is that we are witness to Chris's depravity.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil">

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=twogunsgiancarlo>TWO GUNS GIANCARLO</A>
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at: 4/7/04 6:17 pm

Re: re

#12
cody206, assuming you are serious, I don't think your worst enemy could provide a more damning condemnation of your values and unconscionably hypocritical, misogynistic double standards (based on gender) of moral judgment than your own post does. Enough said.

TwoGuns, for the record, I have never rated (nor have I seen anyone else rate) Chris any lower on the morality/depravity scale than Paulie or those like Ralph and Richie. I think he is easily on par with Paulie, as evidenced as recently as episode 1 of this season with the waiter.

For reasons I have detailed many times in other posts, however, I see fundamental distinctions between him and Tony and (even more so) between him and a character like Bobby. Those distinctions are admittedly not often of a type that should differentiate the punishment that should issue if, say, Tony's murder of Matt Bevalaqua were adjudicated side by side with Chris' murder of Mikey Palmice in courts of law. Rather the distinctions relate primarily to the degree to which the characters are comfortable and unburdened by their own depravity . . . not objectively significant in terms of differentiating the physical acts of killing but very significant dramatically and in engendering a sense of caring or emotional involvement by the audience. I have never glimpsed real inner moral antagonism in characters like Chris and Paulie. They are essentially conscienceless.

Nor do I see anything close to the same capacity for love in those characters that I see in Tony. As I commented elsewhere, Tony showed more genuine affection and tenderness for Ade in the few minutes of their interaction in Ep 5 than Chris has shown her in 5 years, whether it was actually manfiesting some interest and sympathy for her digestive problems or in his concern for her in the ER after the accident.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub132.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flyonmelfiswall>FlyOnMelfisWall</A> at: 4/7/04 8:56 pm

Re: I'm through with Chris

#13
Two Guns : Believe it or not, I consider the families of these innocent victims including Minny Matrone (Paulie's mother's friend); at least she was older, take a look at the waiter who said he had kids just a minute before he was clipped. Despite the fact that these people are complete scum, you cant blame someone for being able to relate, sympathize, or empathize with the characters on the show; blame the amazing writing that allows us to do that.

Flyonmelfiswall : I disagree with your statement on Tony showing Ade more affection than Chris has in years. Tony's 'affection' was nothing more than a selfish and dispicable impulse to get into the pants of the fiance of his apprentice, nephew, 2nd son (theres too many names). You said it yourself; he has gotten to the point where he seeks instant gratification in his impulses no matter how hipocritical or obscene they are. Your a brilliant poster and correct me if im wrong, but I think your ongoing disliking for Chrissy has clouded your opinion on this one.

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not true

#15
"You aren't supposed to "like" these characters or think they can be saved."

IMO, not true. I believe Chase intentionally made Tony very "likeable", as he did with Silvio and some other not so significant characters. As for moral stances, it's a TV show and in no way do these "characters" reflect what a real-life hard criminal is like. Real life hard criminals are likely much less likeable than Tony's character. I believe we ARE "supposed" to like him. Unlikeable characters makes bad programming.

I seriously won't be surprised if the end of season 6 has a happy ending. Why is everyone so hellbent on a tragic ending?

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Chris vs. Tony re Adriana

#16
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I disagree with your statement on Tony showing Ade more affection than Chris has in years. Tony's 'affection' was nothing more than a selfish and dispicable impulse to get into the pants of the fiance of his apprentice, nephew, 2nd son <hr></blockquote>

game1999, the affection/caring I?m referring to was not when he was about to kiss her. In their first office conversation, he actually showed an interest in why she went to the doctor. When he heard she had ?Irritable Bowel Syndrome?, he didn?t look disgusted, tell her he didn?t want to hear details, and mock the notion that she had anything to feel stressed about, like Chris (her fianc?e, no less) did. Rather, Tony offered what feelings of identification he could, telling her his mom had it all her life, revealing his own skin cancer (clearly against his natural inclinations) as a gesture of ?I know how you must feel? sympathy, asking if she knew what caused the IBS, and telling her not to blame herself after learning it was psychological in origin. This contrast in reactions was a deliberate juxtaposition by the writers, and it clearly made a big impression on Ade, as she told Tony, ?Christopher doesn?t want to know about it? and later told the FBI agent that Tony was ?really nice? and ?listened to her?, obviously unlike Chris.

Later in that same encounter, after Ade?s pitiful lament that she wished her father had been like Tony (and how bad must the father have been for TONY to look good?), there is a distinct moment of altruistic caring from Tony when he tells her to ?take care of herself? and says, ?goodnight, dear?.

In the hospital after the wreck, Tony?s tenderness, the way he put his hand on her forehead and the strikingly soft, soothing tone of his voice, communicated more genuine concern about Ade than any gesture I've ever seen from Chris.

Chris did manage a moment of genuine concern when he heard she?d had a wreck. But after the 4 seconds it took to learn she wasn?t dead, that concern all but faded. Replacing it was his immediate, typically self-absorbed, premature blame that he had ?warned her about drinking and driving?.

When he?s driving her home, and before he knows a single fact other than that she was a passenger in Tony?s car late at night, he has NO concern for her badly bruised and cut face or the neck injury that required her to wear a brace. He?s not even primarily concerned that she might have betrayed him by having sex with Tony. That is to say, he?s not feeling a purely private, personal form of hurt grounded in a betrayal by someone he loved and trusted (which, BTW, is EXACTLY what he feels towards Tony, suggesting he loves Tony a lot more than he loves Ade). All he is thinking about vis-?-vis Ade is the injury to his own reputation that will ensue when his mob cronies hear this and assume there was sex going on.

This same hierarchy of concerns is even clearer when he confronts her after Georgie shared with him the rumors. What he is railing about is not ?how could you hurt me like this? but ?everybody knows about it; everybody?s talking about it?. That alone shows clearly that Ade is little more than a piece of property to him, a thing he has staked a claim to, not unlike some exclusive loansharking territory. Her capacity to hurt him lies primarily in her capacity to be the object of trespass.

The other point I think you are overlooking is that Tony?s close encounter with Ade was, quite atypically of him, not really sexual in origin. Before you roll on the floor with laughter, please hear me out.

In four plus seasons and 56 episodes, including the one immediately preceding this one, Tony never betrayed even a hint that he would ever hit on Ade. No ogling, protracted looks, etc. And while I think it?s safe to assume he always found her physically attractive, I don?t think he ever looked at her before and said, ?Man I?d like to bang that chick.? He has a natural revulsion to incest (most recently conveyed in his defensive ?whatever? to Melfi when she used the term ?symbolic incest?). And in the past, I think the incestuous overtones of screwing a girl engaged to his nephew/surrogate son who is closer to his daughter?s age than his own would have unconsciously been a turnoff to him.

But the closest, most secure emotional relationship he?s ever experienced has now been severed, perhaps irreparably, and in the wake of that, he is in a far more vulnerable emotional state than he?s ever been in before. As I?ve said elsewhere, I see him very clearly as in a ?love crisis?, hungry for affirmation of his own worth and loveability from myriad sources, from Melfi to Artie to Tony B to Junior and, now, even from Ade. And I?ve glimpsed a rather profound shift in his most recent and urgent flares of libido, a shift away from T & A (?I see, I like, I want to screw?) to uncharacteristically romantic pursuits based in emotional bonding with a woman.

It?s no coincidence to me that the first woman post-Carmela that he is bent on having is Melfi, or that his pursuit of her included such uncharacteristically romantic gestures as wanting to close her favorite restaurant and hire mandolin players to serenade her or trying to woo her with a first class resort vacation. Melfi is the only woman besides Carmela that he?s ever related to on a significant emotional/intellectual level, and the re-ignition of his passion for her was a direct result of the emotional vacuum left by the separation.

Similarly, it?s no coincidence to me that Tony?s sexual impulses towards Ade only followed a conversation that established a genuine emotional connection between them and only urgently ignited the moment she told him she was no longer ?afraid? of him, as she once had been. It?s no coincidence that he interpreted this as an appreciation by her of some innate goodness within him, since it came just one episode after he internalized Carmela?s observations that the regard of his ?flunkies? was grounded more in fear than in genuine affection. It?s also no coincidence that, as Tony later confesses, Ade ?really got to? him and that with insane rapidity he believes he even wants to marry her.

Melfi?s reaction to all this, best glimpsed when he utters his ?drop dead gorgeous? refrain, confirms the mutable, ephemeral nature of Tony?s current romantic fixations and suggests to me that they are essentially displaced longings for a reconciliation with his wife. In fact, I wouldn?t be surprised at some point this season to hear Tony describing to Melfi or to someone else that when he first laid eyes on Carmela, she was ?drop dead? beautiful, an expression which Tony had never used until this season but has now used twice in connection with uncharacteristic romantic fixations in the wake of his marital collapse.

I suspect we might see Melfi push him to this insight later this season or early next. In the meantime, because Tony is so inept at intimacy generally and is so programmed to relate to females only on a sexual level, there is bound to be a lot of commingling and confusion of the two concepts. I?m beginning to think, in fact, that that?s the meaning behind the naked female bodies in the season 5 poster and perhaps even behind the mysterious woman on the stairs in the Calling All Cars dream: Tony is haunted by women (for obvious reasons) and craves a way to relate to them intimately, non sexually, yet is inept at doing so.

In any case, I believe that Tony would never have consciously entertained the idea of screwing Ade but for his marital separation and that cuckolding Chris and taking advantage of Ade?s vulnerabilities remains essentially repugnant to his value system. Afterall, that?s why he went back to Melfi in the first place and is the only reason he didn?t get Ade back in that office after Leotardo and Peeps left, to pick up where they left off.


</p>

back on topic

#18
My sentiments exactly. I went from hating Christopher early on, when he was just a young, wannabee tough-guy who shot the guy at the bakery in order to get "respect."

In the later seasons, he did manage to grow up a little bit, but he still shows too many flashes of his annoying immaturity: Calling his mother a whore at the intervention, speaking out of turn at the meeting with Johnny Sack after Tony specifically told him not to, having little regard for the fact that Paulie is his capo, treating Ade like a piece of property, and going on that wild, gun-toting rampage last week.

Tony should either shoot him or force him to read Sun Tzu's tips on leadership qualities.

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Re: back on topic

#19
Michael Imperioli is a wonderful actor. testimony indeed in how he makes us hate "Chrissy". Christafa is a PUNK. In real life NO WAY would such a soldier find himself in such a "high-ranking" with the boss. Especially with the Heroin thing.

One major problem I have with this show is in how a very shrewd & smart mob-boss as Tony Soprano would delegate such responsibility to a street-punk. A fiercely LOYAL street-punk....but a street-punk none the less.

Chris Multisanti is a great charactor in this show....but NOT in the rank he holds. I just can't buy it as much as I love the show otherwise. Granted, Tony has put some people that he is absolutely disgusted by in high-ranking positions (Ritchie/Ralphie)...but those were buisness decisions and these guys were "Buisness-savy" in ways that Chris-ta-fa is NOT.
Chris is important to Tonys world the same way Paulie Walnuts is and NO MORE so!


Russ

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p196.ezboard.com/bsopranolandforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=russ058@sopranolandforum>russ058</A> at: 2/17/06 12:16 am

Re: I'm through with Chris

#20
FlyOnMelfisWall wrote:He's always been a true sociopath to me with no real redeeming qualities. His "loyalty" to Tony, such as it's been, is probably the best thing I could ever say about him. I was actually favorably surprised that he didn't kill Ade or injure her more seriously. Still, he's not an ounce "better" than Paulie and only marginally better than Richie or Ralph.

Of course I've always felt that in addition to fairly representing the moral dregs that populate the Mafia, the importance/dramatic purpose of characters like Chris is to offer contrast to Tony, who while similar to Chris in most ways is also very different from him.

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The way I see it, and considering the show is about how Tony sees the world around him (his viewpoint), every single one of those characters is derived from Tony (what he projects unto them)... from qualities and compulsions he has, but every single one of them has them exacerbated to the max...

... may it be: drug abuse, mummy issues, usury, heartlessness, maternal pedestal, food addiction, mistreating women, compulsive lying, money worship, murderous impulses, vacuity, objectifying women, etc etc
(funny detail how Paulie's germophobia was initially a trait Tony was going to have)
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