harpo wrote:Maybe since his actor was a novice, Chase put the cat up as an anagram hint in case Paolo forgot what he was supposed to be doing mid-scene. Explains all Paolo's uncertain glances in that direction.

The light atop the vital signs monitor was the source of the beacon?

We can claim interpretive license as viewers, but nothing I get from Chase in the show or in interviews suggests to me he's interested in tidying up the turbidity of human experience for us by presenting a confident, precise theological vision of reward or punishment after death, as opposed to kicking around the emotional essence of contemplating leaving the world. In interviews about Tony's fate, he sounds allergic to any idea of a morally just Universe but pretty open to a vision of the natural consequences of indulgence.

It's an interesting point you raise but I don't think it's a case of Chase saying "this is a bad man and should therefore die and spend all eternity in darkness",like some classroom morality lesson.I think it's more that because of the extremely violent world Tony lives in it could only realistically end one way for him.He has already survived two gunshot wounds don't forget.He has had ample opportunity to change,to go straight (not that he would be let of course,as he said as much to Eugene).As Carm says "everything comes to an end".

Actually,re-reading your post above I think we're in agreement on this.Not so much a morality play more a case of if you play with fire,you'll get burned.

conkom wrote:I am not suggesting that AJ was definitely killed, nor Carmella (although he half implied in that same interview that she somehow deserved that fate). And we cannot categorically assert that Tony was shot either.

But I also think that Chase is being disingenuous here. If anyone or everyone did survive that night, this is what life would be for each of them.

It would be like hypothesising what it would it have been like if JFK wasn't shot.

When he is interviewed he chooses his words carefully, but he never categorically denies that (at least) Tony was shot dead.

But I think Chase clearly sees Tony as dead, both as a character in his universe and as a fictional construct.

The lights went out, but this time for good.




Unless of course someone convinces him or he convinces himeself, to make that movie.

In the context of the fate of AJ,maybe others have noticed the parallels between him and Tony but it's only lately fully hitting me.They are both identified with the Seven souls monologue,AJ (the devil,dies just past the point of adolescence) and Tony (remains).Both have two near brushes with death (three strikes and you're out).For all you Godfather fans in the first sighting of AJ in 6a.1,after the seven souls sequence,he has a glass of orange in front of him.Tony eats an orange early in 6b.9.And,less importantly I admit,both make it to Holsten's and are named in the anagram for death.In light of David Chase's comments I'm going to look closely for hints to the fate of Carmela.She,for instance was equally given the chance to change,to take her children and leave but no,she can't,she chooses the easy way and possibly her son dies as a result.Anybody have any hints as to Carm's fate I have missed?

The clue to the story text's end can be found in the opening "7 Souls" sequence in "Member's Only".

When we first see Carmella she is in the unfinished spec house where she is talking to Adriana. We are surprised because we remember Adriana being shot like an animal by Silvio under Tony's orders. For a moment we think that maybe she wasn't killed when she was off screen.

Adriana asks Carmella who will live in the house, and she replies, "a family".

When Carmella reveals she is worried all the time, she takes Adriana's cigarette and smokes it. Then Adriana vanishes and we realise that it was Carmella dreaming.

Then we hear about the final soul, Sekhu, the Remains where we watch Tony digging in Junior's backyard.

This was clearly a premonition of death generated from Carmela. Adriana's presence in this dream is no accident. Carmela will once again dream about Adriana when she is in Paris in the episode "Cold Stones".

The family destined for this spec house in the netherworld was none other than the three participants sitting around the table at Holsten's.

Of course someone will argue that it doesn't necessarily mean this, it's too obvious, too much is being read into it, it was probably just a dream, all those symbols and images and clues were red herrings, the show was really about nothing at all, Tony will live to a ripe old age, and Sara Palin wll be the next VP.

conkom wrote:Of course someone will argue that it doesn't necessarily mean this, it's too obvious, too much is being read into it, it was probably just a dream, all those symbols and images and clues were red herrings, the show was really about nothing at all, Tony will live to a ripe old age, and Sara Palin wll be the next VP.

I think it's a brilliant spot about Carm and the spec house and a family living there,brilliant.Don't forget also that Carm, unlike us, doesn't know she's talking to a dead person in her dream,which makes it all the more pointed,IMO.
I don't think Chase's comments about AJ's future negates the anagram at all.After all,we all have hopes and dreams and future schemes,that don't always pan out or come to pass.That's life.Just because AJ has settled on a career in the movie business doesn't mean it will work out that way for him.If anything,for me it makes what I believe happened that night in Holsten's all the more poignant.To hell with Tony and Carmela,AJ is a child.In keeping with the idea of the sins of the father passing on to the son,I think Tony passed on more than "this sick putrid Soprano gene".Both Tony and Carmela were unrepentant in their life choices and I believe all three perished for this.

Don't forget conkom,THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO WON'T SEE.Ours is the true vision in the spirit of the show.If MOG wore a balaclava and a jacket with" I am a hitman" on it there would still be some viewers who couldn't accept the ending because we don't actually witness it.DON'T BE SWAYED!

dsweeney wrote:Don't forget conkom,THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO WON'T SEE.Ours is the true vision in the spirit of the show.If MOG wore a balaclava and a jacket with" I am a hitman" on it there would still be some viewers who couldn't accept the ending because we don't actually witness it.DON'T BE SWAYED!

dsweeney, this is the last time I'm going to ask you to stop your provocations and condescension toward those who do not agree with you. That kind of posting is not welcome here.

And, btw, the degree of arrogance in your statement is staggering.

Per Mafia Rules....families are never, ever touched! Throughout the entire series, anyone who got "whacked"-never was an innocent family member involved. Phil's killing...his wife and grandchildren lived.

No way MOG would shoot at AJ, Carm, and Meadow after shooting Tony in the head.

"Two shots to the head, drop the gun, and a car will be waiting outside."

Actually I've also been on the record saying that nothing is definitive either, even though I tend to favour the
Tony was 86ed side. As a literary device the sudden cut to black representing Tony's final POV suggests he got whacked. But we don't see a smoking gun either. This allows for an ambiguity of outcomes. Or maybe even more.

And I have read some very good arguments to suggest otherwise. I do think that Chase is placing a little each way bet for the viewers.

But for now Tony, his family and his world are dead, irrespective of whether or not anyone shot him. 7 Souls tells us that much when we are hear about Ren, the first soul. He can just as likely reanimate the whole construct.

But I doubt it.