Re: Anyone else?

#71
Rike wrote:I really like this post Marlowe. It made me realize that what was really important about Tony was the salvation of his soul, not the state of his flesh, and we got a really good answer to that question.

Fantastic :icon_biggrin:


Ditto Marlowe and Rike, and Krakower you are hilarious- LMAO!!:icon_mrgreen: That scorpion story cuts two ways. Rike, you nailed it that the important point was not the state of his actual flesh. i Still don't conclude that we got the answer on Tony's actual salvation results as much as that he has the possibility of salvation as much as anyone else, even if his life currently is in a sort of hell as so well-summarized by Marlowe. I'm still really disappointed that Melfi dumped him in the manner that she did, but it really illustrated the hypocrisy of all parties involved.

And now i've got to say that i admit i don't remember a glow in the dark condom scene in a movie with Orson Welles! Wher've i been?...geez. its all so perfect with the flipping bird and FOMW's original timely condom response!

Re: Anyone else?

#72
if there was one event large enough to "wake up" tony soprano...and get him to become a different person it was the N.D.E.

the point of the N.D.E. was the show that nothing would be enough. even the fear of hell wasn't enough.

chase believes in free will. tony soprano CHOSE to be a gangster.

Re: Anyone else?

#73
if there was one event large enough to "wake up" tony soprano...and get him to become a different person it was the N.D.E.

the point of the N.D.E. was the show that nothing would be enough. even the fear of hell wasn't enough.

chase believes in free will. tony soprano CHOSE to be a gangster


Perfectly stated . Chase said the same thing to EW in January before the second half of the season started:

''It is in our interest to show that there are certain ways that we all spend our lives, and that as adults, we decide our fate, we make our own bed, and we lie in it. That to me is not the same, hopefully, as saying crime doesn't pay, or bad people are punished. Free will exists.''

Re: Anyone else?

#74
richieaprile wrote:Perfectly stated . Chase said the same thing to EW in January before the second half of the season started:


Joe and RA, you are both exactly right. And at the same time, Tony can still choose NOT to be a gangster anymore, even if he currently appears to have stuck with the wrong choices. But alas, it sounds like i'm in the unfortunate position of almost defending the indefensible here, i realize it looks pretty hopeless for Tony's spiritual fate- but how can we ever truly know about another person's salvation after they go? And what good does it do to act towards another as if we do know? May as well live in a state of hopefulness for everyone concerned. i hear that there is hope...

Re: Anyone else?

#75
See, to me, the fact that Tony has the free will to choose and chooses not to is much the point in interpreting the ending in the manner that I have. If the message is to show one has free will and to show Tony choosing the life of a gangster, what is the point of killing him? He doesn't suffer that way. It is only if he lives and must face the life he chose that it makes any sense to me...

But I've already said it before and in far longer form. :icon_wink:
"Leave the gun...take the cannoli." - Clemenza

Think Tony Died? Consider this...

Visit my Blog at Hear the Hurd

Re: Anyone else?

#76
Detective Hunt wrote:See, to me, the fact that Tony has the free will to choose and chooses not to is much the point in interpreting the ending in the manner that I have. If the message is to show one has free will and to show Tony choosing the life of a gangster, what is the point of killing him? He doesn't suffer that way. It is only if he lives and must face the life he chose that it makes any sense to me...

But I've already said it before and in far longer form. :icon_wink:


Actually, IMHO, the way you just said it was just as succinct and clear as your other communications- and shorter too! i can agree with you more easily now. And if he indeed continues living in the physical flesh, well then, there is still some chances for him to decide to stop being a gangster before he actually expires. And until then, he lives in a hell on Earth that he helped create for himself. i gotta say, i can believe this, because there are times when i have created a situation here on Earth i'd rather not have had to live with, but i'm glad i stuck in there and no one wrote me off, because then i made other choices and now its all good. Now ofcourse, i wasn't an ax murderer or anything, but sometimes it really is all relative. i'd like to believe that Tony can pay for his crimes and be redeemed, but i'm not sure if Chase believes that. In fact- i actually do think that Chase has some anger and pissed-offness with the Catholic Church (who doesn't these days?) that he uses Tony as a vehicle to express, and Chase shakes his fist at G-d sometimes. So even if someday Chase tells us an exact interpretation that says Tony actually got his brains blown out, well, i guess i would just accept it, but like many have said- does that matter now? i like the blackout, the not knowing for sure about someone else's fate- gives me chance to feel hopeful for them, for humanity, for myself- even if all the odds are against a good outcome. Don't forget- i am a lightning strike survivor- pretty slim odds, and by the Grace of God. i never like to buy into standard statistics or give up on anyone (not that i could ever be Tony's ACLU attorney or criminal defense attorney...).:smile:

Re: Anyone else?

#77
See, to me, the fact that Tony has the free will to choose and chooses not to is much the point in interpreting the ending in the manner that I have. If the message is to show one has free will and to show Tony choosing the life of a gangster, what is the point of killing him? He doesn't suffer that way. It is only if he lives and must face the life he chose that it makes any sense to me...

But I've already said it before and in far longer form.


Maybe, of course this is all very subjective. To me the idea of dying an instantanous death without ever seeing the killer or ever knowing why is suffering enough for me. He has no chance to say goodbye or reflect or have a second chance. It is just so wasteful and tragic. To have it happen in front of his family, in front of the very people who he has been trying to protect from his other "family" for the length of the series rings very poetic to me and true to Chase's sensibilities. He gets no grand death of a gangster but a simple abrupt cut to black. Look at the quote again

''It is in our interest to show that there are certain ways that we all spend our lives, and that as adults, we decide our fate, we make our own bed, and we lie in it. That to me is not the same, hopefully, as saying crime doesn't pay, or bad people are punished. Free will exists.''


To me it indicates that Chase does not want to express a simple message of "Crime doesnt pay". But also note he says "we decide our fate, we make our own bed". This seems to indicate that there will be some "fate" that will befall Tony b/c of his actions. Chase's intentions (IMO) are to show that Tony's death is a natural extension of his actions, his own free will. He had his chance to change from his NDE but didn't. I think his "hopefully" is very telling. I think he does not want Tony's death to be seen as a simple "bad people are punished" theme but as a logical extension of Tony's choices in the final season.

Re: Anyone else?

#78
For the first time I'm seeing Journey's "don't stop believing" as a very sarcastic thing to have playing in the end. For the audience, there is no reason to have any faith left in Tony at all, but he's sitting there munching on onion rings imploring us not to give up.

We all know Tony's rotation around the sun lands him directly back where he started.

In the end I feel as duped as Melfi by this sociopath, hopelessly keeping up hope.

Re: Anyone else?

#79
Rike wrote:For the first time I'm seeing Journey's "don't stop believing" as a very sarcastic thing to have playing in the end. For the audience, there is no reason to have any faith left in Tony at all, but he's sitting there munching on onion rings imploring us not to give up.

We all know Tony's rotation around the sun lands him directly back where he started.

In the end I feel as duped as Melfi by this sociopath, hopelessly keeping up hope.

Indeed, Rike - I believe that is what has given so many so much agita over the finale and final scene.
"Leave the gun...take the cannoli." - Clemenza

Think Tony Died? Consider this...

Visit my Blog at Hear the Hurd

Re: Anyone else?

#80
I needed to wait until later to respond to these comments, but I didn't want to ignore them, they were so good. Needed some time to think...and work (damn work.) :smile:

badabellisima wrote:Actually, IMHO, the way you just said it was just as succinct and clear as your other communications- and shorter too! i can agree with you more easily now. And if he indeed continues living in the physical flesh, well then, there is still some chances for him to decide to stop being a gangster before he actually expires. And until then, he lives in a hell on Earth that he helped create for himself. i gotta say, i can believe this, because there are times when i have created a situation here on Earth i'd rather not have had to live with, but i'm glad i stuck in there and no one wrote me off, because then i made other choices and now its all good. Now ofcourse, i wasn't an ax murderer or anything, but sometimes it really is all relative. i'd like to believe that Tony can pay for his crimes and be redeemed, but i'm not sure if Chase believes that. In fact- i actually do think that Chase has some anger and pissed-offness with the Catholic Church (who doesn't these days?) that he uses Tony as a vehicle to express, and Chase shakes his fist at G-d sometimes. So even if someday Chase tells us an exact interpretation that says Tony actually got his brains blown out, well, i guess i would just accept it, but like many have said- does that matter now? i like the blackout, the not knowing for sure about someone else's fate- gives me chance to feel hopeful for them, for humanity, for myself- even if all the odds are against a good outcome. Don't forget- i am a lightning strike survivor- pretty slim odds, and by the Grace of God. i never like to buy into standard statistics or give up on anyone (not that i could ever be Tony's ACLU attorney or criminal defense attorney...).:smile:

I really don't know that it is so much about others "giving up" on Tony as much as he might have given up on himself. In the end, our judgment comes from God (in my belief) and only God. If we have lived a life worthy of entering heaven, then well and good. But it takes the man to make that very choice. So yes, it's entirely possible that Tony might live and someday turn to the God personally and truly rather than simply offering platitudes on Sundays and funerals (which we all know he hates.) In fact, he mentioned that he hated these occasions precisely because he didn't like acting a way he did not feel. And blamed it on THEM. If he dies now, I imagine he's going straight to hell. So for those who want swift justice, him dying is probably the best way to go. But for those who would rather see him wage a pitiful existence for years to come without ever changing his ways in the process since we know he won't, him living is a must.

richieaprile wrote:Maybe, of course this is all very subjective. To me the idea of dying an instantanous death without ever seeing the killer or ever knowing why is suffering enough for me. He has no chance to say goodbye or reflect or have a second chance. It is just so wasteful and tragic. To have it happen in front of his family, in front of the very people who he has been trying to protect from his other "family" for the length of the series rings very poetic to me and true to Chase's sensibilities. He gets no grand death of a gangster but a simple abrupt cut to black. Look at the quote again

To me it indicates that Chase does not want to express a simple message of "Crime doesnt pay". But also note he says "we decide our fate, we make our own bed". This seems to indicate that there will be some "fate" that will befall Tony b/c of his actions. Chase's intentions (IMO) are to show that Tony's death is a natural extension of his actions, his own free will. He had his chance to change from his NDE but didn't. I think his "hopefully" is very telling. I think he does not want Tony's death to be seen as a simple "bad people are punished" theme but as a logical extension of Tony's choices in the final season.

Which brings me to your comment. To me, Tony's death is not tragic. Never tragic. It is inevitable. And it will not be pretty. If it's instantaneous and in front of his family, then they really suffer more than he. His suffering comes later, which I am convinced will happen regardless. So you can see why I prefer the slow painful death. :icon_wink:

Either way, it gets the job done as far as Chase in concerned, I suppose, depending on the way you want to view the ending. But in yet another beauty of Chase's creation, he left that open to us, whether he intended to or not. A happy accident or a maddening predicament? I prefer the former. :icon_biggrin:
"Leave the gun...take the cannoli." - Clemenza

Think Tony Died? Consider this...

Visit my Blog at Hear the Hurd

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