Re: Anyone else?

#81
Either way, it gets the job done as far as Chase in concerned, I suppose, depending on the way you want to view the ending. But in yet another beauty of Chase's creation, he left that open to us, whether he intended to or not. A happy accident or a maddening predicament? I prefer the former


Good point and makes me wonder about some of Chase's comments regarding the ending. I think his Planet of the Apes analogy is just so disengenious. His ending is subject to interpretation, POA is just not. (btw, I read your "think Tony is dead? consider this" article and I thought it was terrific although fundamentally I disagree with your conclusion).

I think the "Meadow getting new birth control" conversation in Holstens is there for a significant reason and I think it fits into the tragedy that is Tony's death. In re-watching the final season there is a great tender moment between Meadow and Tony in "Mr. and Mrs. John Sacrimoni's Request". Tony asks Meadow about marrying Finn and about potential grandkids. Tony says (rather emotionally) that his NDE made him realize what was important and he wants to be able to hold Meadows baby in his arms. He also brings up wanting to be around for grandchildren during his talk w/ Phil when Phil is in the hospital for his heart attack. My point being, maybe Meadow just found out that she was pregnant. Look at her face as she runs to the door of Holstens, she seems very anxious. There is a "look" on her face that is very deliberate and I dont just think it is b/c she was worried that she was late. So Tony is about to get the news that he will get to hold her baby in his arms but is then shot and killed just before he is about to get the news. He will never experience the moment he has always dreamed about. I think that conversation in Holstens had to be for a reason and there may be a connection.

Re: Anyone else?

#82
richieaprile wrote:Fly,
Excellent post. I feel your need to see Tony redeemed is leading you to fail to fully appreciate the beauty of the final season. I also have to disagree with you. Tony did try to change after he came out of the coma (at least at much as a guy like him can change). He was more tolerant. He really debated letting Vito go and seemed to accept his homosexuality. He even stopped cheating on Carmela for a little while (with Julianna). He shared with Phil and Dr. Shwinn that he felt he was being pulled towards hell in the coma. However in the end he failed for numerous reasons (his basic nature or just being a Mafia boss cant allow him to go soft). You cite the "Second Coming" conversation with Melfi. Tony did say he saw something else that is out there and had an epiphany but he also says that you come to realizations and "grab it" but then its gone. This reflects his realization to live a better life after surviving the Junior hit but in the end this realization was gone (back to the old Tony). Chase is not a pure nihilist. Chase clearly points out Tony's love for his children. Even AJ grows and is given the chance to think of a purpose outside of himself (fighting terrorism). There are many moving moments in the history of the show. Chase embraces justice and morality. Richie, Pussy, Chris, Silvio, Ralphie, Sack and all the others have met "justice" in some form or another. That is why Tony DID die in those final moments. Meadow joing the table and the family having "The Brady Bunch" moment that Tony has always dreamed of is inconsistent with Chase's sensibilites and everything else he has done on the show previously. In the end Tony ruined many lives (both directly and indirectly) and has no chance for redemption. That is what Chase is telling us and that is not nihilistic. That is why we have the Members Only/Eugene Pontecorvo connection. That is why Tony never once mentioned Eugene's suicide during the show (very unusual). Chase wanted the audience to forget about Eugene just like Tony forgot about Eugene. The point being that we the audience should NOT forget about the lives that Tony has ruined. Tony is oblivious to the destruction he has caused and MOG (Eugene) gets him in the end when Tony thinks he is safe. Tony is not a man the audience should be rooting for. Notice Tony completely mocking God and destiny in the scene in "Chasing It". Carmela cries that she is worried about Tony dying. Tony arrogantly says that he is immortal b/c he survived a gun shot wound and b/c of this says "I am Up...way up". Notice how Tony laughs off Paulies Virgin Mary sighting and the cat omen. These things were deliberate by Chase and have only have full resonance in the context of Tony's death at the end. Of course all he sees his "Darkness" and "nothingness". Tony isnt going to a happy place, the "Inn at the Oaks" told us that. Fly, you are one of the great commentators on the show on the web and we need you back. Put aside how you though the show should
end and start digging into the material. Like Chase said "It's all there".

Krakower,
I agree with you. However, I am trying to be political and not start another Tony lives/Tony dies debate.


The above contains a perspective also held by others that Tony is responsible and should be blamed and perhaps have to "pay" for Eugene's suicide. I disagree. Eugene chose to be Made, fully join and make a lifetime commitment to the mob family. The rules of the organization left him with no way out. Tony, as boss, was also bound to uphold those rules, even if it was also to his personal and selfish advantage. Maybe Chase, too, wanted to blame Tony, but Tony, Eugene, and the each individual involved are responsible for thier own choices. And Eugene also chose to kill himself - Tony didn't order a hit or sarcastically or otherwise encourage his death.

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