jesse100 wrote:Long shot but if Junior was faking (like Gigante did in real life) then maybe it was something he would have done.

J

I know that I might be seeming to neutralise the "whodunnit" issue but it is worth being reminded that Patsy's twin brother, who was killed on Tony's orders, was part of Junior's crew.

conkom wrote:The infamous anagram does stipulate an anonymous "a man" was responsible for the killing.

Objection! This is pure conjecture stated as fact.

Over-ruled! It is a FACT that the anagram states " a man" does the killing. Whether you think the anagram merits serious consideration or not is another matter.

richjcrouch wrote:Objection! This is pure conjecture stated as fact.

I am not sure what is wrong about speculating about a work of fiction and what the author might have meant about an ostensibly ambiguous scene.

Does a "pure conjecture" mean that one is making a wild improbable guess with no connection to the matter discussed?

The question that heads this thread clearly asks, "Who would have had Tony killed?"

What is definite is that we do not know who this alleged killer is and who might have hired this alleged killer to commit the alleged act.

There are some very good guesses as to whom he or they might be.

If it was the intention of the creator of the series, David Chase, to have his fictional creation Tony Soprano (and perhaps some members of his family) to be killed then the best available answer would be "a man".

The fact that it is also mentioned in the "infamous" anagram is purely incidental.

dsweeney wrote:Over-ruled! It is a FACT that the anagram states " a man" does the killing. Whether you think the anagram merits serious consideration or not is another matter.

I like it!

All disputes should be solved this way!

Back to who theoretically would have had Tony shot, I would like to suggest that it was a retaliatory hit from the '5 families' for an unsanctioned hit on one of their 5 bosses.

I don't think they would have let this go.

Can we be sure it is an unsanctioned hit though ? How do we know that the other families didn't give the go-ahead ? Butchie won't go so far as to actually give Phil up but he clearly tells Tony to " do what you gotta do ". Now I would doubt if Butchie would sell out his boss without having the backing of the other families. Remember when Ritchie, in cahoots with Jun, tried to move against Tony with another family and they wouldn't go for it ? Can't think of his name but the point is "Ritchie couldn't sell it, he didn't have enough respect ". So I would venture the hit on Phil was actually agreed by the other families, Phil at this point being totally unreasonable and bad for business. Butchie and the consigliere appear to be sick of it at this stage and obviously feel they can do business with T. and get rid of Phil.
I would favour the notion that it is something more left-field, a bit more obscure. Feech ordering the hit from his jail cell. Or an earlier idea I mentioned, that of Hesh being terrified Tony was going to whack him rather than pay him the k200 he owes him. I quoted before the great line from Hesh to his son-in-law; " I go to guys like him to DEAL with guys like him". Hesh, genuinely fearing for his life, ( when Tony and Bobby call to his house, it's clearly meant in some way to intimidate him IMO ), could set the hit in motion. Then, out of the blue, his beloved Renata dies in her sleep. He is clearly beside him self with grief and even though Tony at this point grudgingly hands over the money Hesh is beyond caring. It's at least feasible the hit was now in motion.

There is of course the slim possibility that Furio was behind it. Faint heart never won fair maiden and all that. Tony of course already has a contract on HIM so that's another motive as well.

If Tony was killed in Holstens.

I think someone in NY would be a prime suspect.

Even though at the "sit-down", it appears Butchie is ok with idea of NJ killing Phil. I would argue that Butchie,(underboss) of Phil's crew, and a few other associates are only a couple close associates making that critical decision. Remember that Phil probably had 3 or more caporegime reporting to him. With Phil being killed..this opens up the boss's seat.

Maybe a few capo's don't respect Butchie for allowing the hit on Phil and maybe Butchie was next to be killed.

Maybe one the capos is making a move to become boss of NY and killing Tony shows his decisiveness.

The other crews think Butchie's decision was weak! Never allow a hit the "Boss" of your family! They demand Tony's head!

Obv. their are a number of scenarios that could take place given how this "war" between Tony & Phil ended. But giving the timeline, if Tony was killed, it resulted from this NY/NJ conflict

I am now intrigued more with the Jun/Patsy angle. Not only did Patsy work for Jun but his twin was wacked on orders from T!

Jesse