Re: Raging Bull Scene

#11
Turangawaewae- you were a boxer! You just gotta see Raging Bull!

Meanwhile, interesting note, if perhaps a stretch:

re: Cavalleria Rusticana = (translates: Rustic Chivalry); a one-act play/opera from the 1890's.

Well, in the actual opera/one-act play, that beautiful Intermezzo music (used in the scenes we're talking about) starts when one of the two main male characters (Alfio) is told that he was betrayed by the other guy (Turiddu). So Alfio challenges Turiddu to a duel. Turiddu bites Alfios ear when they embrace to agree to the duel. The Sicilian custom says that if blood is drawn, then they must fight to the death, and Alfio's ear drew blood. Ultimately, it is Tiriddu who ends up dying in the fight, NOT Alfio, the guy with the bloody ear.

Tony had a bloody ear from when back in Season (1/2/3?) those two guys tried to clip him and missed. Tony Lived (imo). :smile:

Re: Raging Bull Scene

#12
conkom wrote:He would be selling patio furniture or a precision optics salesman.


I know what was said in the series about patio furniture etc, but I see him running a club or a bar. However, given people would probably want to whack him, he would probably move to the beach, live off Carmella's spec house projects, and get even fatter.

Re: Raging Bull Scene

#14
I was making the connection that the two boxers described in the Fleshy Part of the Thigh episode as being one to me is a reference to Tony and Phils paralell demise. These two guys that are duking it out are actually one entity like the scientist said. And if you think Tony Dies then it fits with the theory. Phil dies (one boxer) Tony dies (other boxer). Just a thought as I know we can debate over it but Im just specualting for the sake of entertainment.
[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]You know, Vito called me “skip” the other day. Slip of the tongue, no doubt. But I noticed he didn’t correct himself.[/font][SIZE="1"][/SIZE]

Re: Raging Bull Scene

#15
badabellisima wrote:Turangawaewae- you were a boxer! You just gotta see Raging Bull!

Meanwhile, interesting note, if perhaps a stretch:

re: Cavalleria Rusticana = (translates: Rustic Chivalry); a one-act play/opera from the 1890's.

Well, in the actual opera/one-act play, that beautiful Intermezzo music (used in the scenes we're talking about) starts when one of the two main male characters (Alfio) is told that he was betrayed by the other guy (Turiddu). So Alfio challenges Turiddu to a duel. Turiddu bites Alfios ear when they embrace to agree to the duel. The Sicilian custom says that if blood is drawn, then they must fight to the death, and Alfio's ear drew blood. Ultimately, it is Tiriddu who ends up dying in the fight, NOT Alfio, the guy with the bloody ear.

Tony had a bloody ear from when back in Season (1/2/3?) those two guys tried to clip him and missed. Tony Lived (imo). :smile:


Now that is a streeeeeeetttttttttttccccccchhhhhhhh. But very entertaining.:icon_biggrin:

Re: Raging Bull Scene

#16
Destruction is self-destruction. Psychologically, Tony's or Phil's rage is at their own weakness, projected instead at their enemy. Spiritually or in karmic terms, in rending your victim by murder, you are rending yourself: a distinct individual able to callously sequester another's fate from your own- a poisonous ideology that spreads until eventually you are someone else's victim. In broad terms, mankind is destroying itself. And to link it to Chase's interview before the final episodes, it's not that bad people are punished by a just universe so much as viewed from cold realism, to live indulging our greedy and violent impulses is risky; the connection between literal gambling and Tony gambling with his life are given to us. And maybe the extrapolating of it to global themes comes from the juxtaposition of Phil's death with Al Qaeda video. Plotwise, Phil's attempt to hit Tony amounts to Phil getting hit, and that fate is sealed right before the boxing visual, justified by the music and very probably referring to Schwinn's conversation with Tony. We have enough to know Phil's self-destruction is what happens to Tony too even if the specifics of it remain shrouded. And as disturbing as it is, from a pure entertainment standpoint, how much less interesting it is if we had known the details instead of being blindsided ourselves.

As for music to understand the cut to black, "When the Music's Over" from "Blue Comet" is the quickest way to get there. Or ask your friend up there on the wall, in Made in America, as Paulie and Walden are talking about the cat, not unlike the cat that sits at the intersection of two walls looking in.

Re: Raging Bull Scene

#17
Harpo- another amazing post. Lots to discuss, but here's a starter:

harpo wrote: We have enough to know Phil's self-destruction is what happens to Tony too even if the specifics of it remain shrouded. And as disturbing as it is, from a pure entertainment standpoint, how much less interesting it is if we had known the details instead of being blindsided ourselves.


Good point. - i think even in the original opera production of Cavalleria Rusticano, they don't show details of the duel/death scene about to occur- the audience just knows it happens from the dialogue/arias, etc.,

-here it is from Wiki:

...Turiddu rushes out. Lucia, weeping, wanders aimlessly around outside her house. Santuzza approaches and throws her arms around her. The villagers start to crowd around. Voices are heard in the distance and a woman cries, "They have murdered Turiddu!" Santuzza faints and Lucia collapses in the arms of the women villagers.

Interesting that the term "they" (have murdered Turiddu) is used.

Re: Raging Bull Scene

#18
harpo wrote:
As for music to understand the cut to black, "When the Music's Over" from "Blue Comet" is the quickest way to get there. Or ask your friend up there on the wall, in Made in America, as Paulie and Walden are talking about the cat, not unlike the cat that sits at the intersection of two walls looking in.


I have been hoping someone would take up this topic further. Now this may be waaay too much of a streeeetch, and probably needs its own thread, but what the heck:

This relates to Chase et al's use of the cat looking into the intersection of two walls. Here goes:

Lots of us, mostly in a friendly way, have different POV's regarding how we "see" the ending. So imagine that we come from different paradigms, but have trouble seeing the other person's POV, or have trouble actually standing in their shoes. Okay, try to stay with me here....

ANd most of the time, we have trouble actually even seeing our own selves, even our own POV or paradigm, as we actually are: Like everyday, we look in the mirror to comb our hair, but we get used to the reverse image, and think thats how others see us. But if everyday we looked at a live video of ourselves, we'd get more used to the feedback that shows us; like when we catch a glimpse of ourselves on the live video screen while we wait in line for a bankteller (lots of that going on now that the economy is tanking!). Its usually a bit shocking- is that really me?

But what if the cat is looking into the intersection of two mirrored walls? A Whole new concept:

If you would like to see a mirror image of yourself that is not reversed left-to-right, here's how to do it:

Place two mirrors at a 90 degree angle to each other so that their vertical edges are touching. (Some bathrooms have right-angle mirrors around the whole counter top, so just look into the mirrored corner).

Stand directly in front of the pair and look at the intersection point- the 'corner'. Now, try to comb your hair while looking at the image of your face. Interesting isn't it? The paired mirrors produce a double reflection. the second reflection reverses the first reversal and you're yourself as others see you. The virtual, but true, image

If the cat, or anyone, looks into intersected plain, painted corner walls, they don't see their true selves, unless the walls are mirrored. They see basically nothing. (However, they have an opportunity for inner reflection, meditation, or the old-fashioned time-out punishment with a chair facing into the corner of the room).

We are surrounded by feedback reflected back to us that is formed by people seeing our true image, but we might be interpreting it as though we are not looking into a cornered-mirror. We might be interpreting it like the cat looking at a dead-end flat wall. We aren't seeing ourselves as others might see us. We see but we don't See.

This theme, imho, is critical to understanding many important points throughout the whole series, and in particular, Chase's mysterious intentions about the use of Christopher's image/presence, even after his demise at the hands of Tony. :smile:

Re: Raging Bull Scene

#19
The mystery of what happened to my hair is almost as perplexing as what happened to Tony. I've tried to push several mirrors together and still nothing. Maybe they'll make a movie about it. The upside is I have a pretty realistic idea how the world sees me.* Sometimes I have looked at a video screen in the bank and been shocked and thought, "Is that really me?" but the explanation is usually that it's not me and I was confused. It's the young girl in line in front of me, which is a relief. What's a 6 year old girl doing at the bank by herself anyway? No wonder our economy is in the shape it's in.

The cat from Walden's story was always at the corner of a table looking out (like Tony was) or at the intersection of two walls looking in (like the tiger was) connecting this scene very much to the final scene. And Christopher's image isn't the only murder victim mounted on the wall when Walden tells Paulie that story. There's also a stuffed buck head that by transitive power of association ties not hearing it when it happens to the the cat in the corner at Holsten's... and more generally suggests hunter as victim, as happened to Bobby who hunted the buck (and the washing drummer), Phil who hunted Tony, Christopher who hunted JT, Daniel Baldwin who hunted Michael the Cleaver, Tony who hunted Christopher and me who made fun of Don Zimmer.

*incoherent

Re: Raging Bull Scene

#20
Its funny you mention the video screen. Remember Tony's Lawyer constantly checking the video screen at the bing durin the infamous "ketchup" scene? This also refers to that cat looking into corners ting......
[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]You know, Vito called me “skip” the other day. Slip of the tongue, no doubt. But I noticed he didn’t correct himself.[/font][SIZE="1"][/SIZE]
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