Did Kennedy and Heidi damage your emotional investment in or connection to Tony?

Total votes: 0

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#31
First , to clarify some terms I'm a little confused about in this thread: My personal INTEREST in Tony has never been greater & will maintain 'til the end of the series (I gotta know what happens) , while my EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT has been eroding over the last few episodes. I think Chase, ever the realist, has been doing this on purpose to prepare us for the ending.
Tony has always been the most complex, interesting character (hell, it's HIS show) here. All the rest are just dumb, one-dimensional wise-guys, civilians, goomahs and extended family members. Even Melfi & Carm are not totally aware of all the dimensions (or "compartments") of Tony, they only knowing the ones Tony "allows" them to see .
My point is, Tony is very bright, deep & insightful (as Artie puts it, he's playing chess & sees 12 moves ahead), but has always been able to "compartmentalize" the various facets of his life. Over the course of the series we've seen Son, Mobster, Nephew, Brother, Father, Husband, Gambler, Crook and now ultimately Killer or egocentric Sociopath(?). All these compartments have always been there from the beginning; Chase does not introduce anything "new" (like the gambling or the stone-faced killing), he just allows us to see it when he deems fit.
Now, nearing the finale, all the "compartments" are bleeding into each other and maybe we are about to see the "true" Tony. That's the payoff, & maybe we're not going to like what we find...

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#32
FlyOnMelfisWall wrote:If he were engaged in doing the very thing Carmela thought him incapable of during the worst times of their separation, if he was "helping her to the bathroom when she could no longer walk there herself", I can't believe he wouldn't seriously reorder the priorities in his life. I can't believe Carm would spend those last months worrying about Iagos and new Mercedes instead of worrying about her son's future and doing everything she could to extract a commitment from Tony to take care of their boy.


The big question is, when do we get to watch your HBO series, Fly?:icon_wink:

I'm not holding my breath waiting for Carmela to wake up in the last couple episodes. I think she's too much of a stand-in for the American people/people in general, who will turn a blind eye to the corruption of their leaders as long as the stream of consumer goods keeps flowing (this is not a reference to any particular government leader or administration--I don't think who's president or who controls Congress has much affect on this). As long as she allows herself to be anesthetized (comfortably numb?) by the acquisition of stuff she is never going to do the soul-searching necessary to realize what she is. It seems to be a near-universal human trait. When the Berlin wall came down I watched as the Western reporters kept asking the East Germans about freedom and democracy, and pretty much every single one responded with their plans to buy VCRs and refrigerators.

If you fundamentally believe that Tony lacks the capacity to love that way, then I agree any thought of redemption is foolish. But I've always credited him with that ability. He loves very few people. But with respect to those few, the love is real and powerful.


I agree that Tony is capable of real love. That's why to me he's not a true sociopath, however much he may behave like one. It's also what makes him fundamentally unsuited to be a mobster--thus the panic attacks, etc. However, he can viciously turn on someone in an instant. Meadow is just about the only one who's never been on the receiving end of his wrath, isn't she? Has Sil?
Oh, there's my coffee. Well, didn't you bring me
any donuts or sweet rolls?

--Hank Quinlan

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#33
Mafiaphile wrote:First , to clarify some terms I'm a little confused about in this thread: My personal INTEREST in Tony has never been greater & will maintain 'til the end of the series (I gotta know what happens) , while my EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT has been eroding over the last few episodes. I think Chase, ever the realist, has been doing this on purpose to prepare us for the ending.

[snip]
Now, nearing the finale, all the "compartments" are bleeding into each other and maybe we are about to see the "true" Tony. That's the payoff, & maybe we're not going to like what we find...


Great post, Mafiaphile! I like your distinction between interest and emotional investment. I did feel numb and betrayed while watching "Kennedy & Heidi," but I'm even more emotionally invested in the show and its outcome, as opposed to Tony's personal fate. Maybe I'm just a dark person, but I can only think of a handful of movies or books that I love that have sympathetic protaganists and happy endings, anyway. As long as the last two episodes are well done, and I assume they will be, I think I'm going to be OK whether Tony embraces his monstrous self and becomes the capo di tutti capi, retires to the Bahamas with the grandkids, or something in between. (Sure wish we could pour you a big glass of red wine, FOMW, and hold your hand for the next two episodes so you'll be OK in case it's #1.)
Oh, there's my coffee. Well, didn't you bring me
any donuts or sweet rolls?


--Hank Quinlan

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#34
clementine wrote: (Sure wish we could pour you a big glass of red wine, FOMW, and hold your hand for the next two episodes so you'll be OK in case it's #1.)


Clementine, I'm just touched (genuinely) that so many people have cared about my distress over this, LOL. Rest assured that I will have a nice cabernet sauvignon on hand for the next week plus. I am prepared to drink a toast to you all, if not to Tony.:icon_wink:
Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#35
Mafiaphile wrote:Tony has always been the most complex, interesting character (hell, it's HIS show) here. All the rest are just dumb, one-dimensional wise-guys, civilians, goomahs and extended family members. Even Melfi & Carm are not totally aware of all the dimensions (or "compartments") of Tony, they only knowing the ones Tony "allows" them to see .
My point is, Tony is very bright, deep & insightful (as Artie puts it, he's playing chess & sees 12 moves ahead), but has always been able to "compartmentalize" the various facets of his life. Over the course of the series we've seen Son, Mobster, Nephew, Brother, Father, Husband, Gambler, Crook and now ultimately Killer or egocentric Sociopath(?). All these compartments have always been there from the beginning; Chase does not introduce anything "new" (like the gambling or the stone-faced killing), he just allows us to see it when he deems fit.
Now, nearing the finale, all the "compartments" are bleeding into each other and maybe we are about to see the "true" Tony. That's the payoff, & maybe we're not going to like what we find...


This to me is a key point about Tony and other mobsters their ability to -'compartmentalize' their lifes - as Mafiaphile discusses in parts of his post I copied to here. Some seem to have fewer compartments or better able to keep them further apart - especially as to wifes and children from their mob 'work' and life. They also compartmentalize their morality - they can rationalize the killing of a rat or someone who crosses them or owes them a loansharking or gambling debt yet show empthy for a loved one. They can cheat on a wife, but will always return the them as they need that anchor in their lives the whores don't. I agree that for Tony his 'compartments' are 'bleeding into each other', perhaps due to deep moral conflicts in his life he can no longer rationalize. I have always felt that Tony was a 'reluctant' mobster, the panic attacks are a manistification of the conflict of his 'reluctance'
For many in America today, we have to compartmentalize our lives more than ever, with a different morality as to our work vs. family and we have conflicts with that. Perhaps that is part of the conflicts Tony expresses in his first meeting with Melfi, where he discusses that people like his Grandfather were at the beginning of America and the Mafia, and today we are exiting the America we knew. America has matured and in the USA the Italian based Mafia is dying, it's intended function to help the Italian immigrants survive in the USA no longer needed as 'Made in America'.
I do want to see what happens in the next and last episodes - especially as to Tony and what the final message Chase has for us in this series.

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#36
I would have to say, to answer the question, that my emotional investment in Tony was unchanged by the episode. However, this is based on the rather large assumption that there is an explanation forthcoming regarding Tony’s revelation. Once his revelation has been fully fleshed out, I believe that we will have the tools to understand his behavior in “Kennedy and Heidi.”

The issue here, as I see it, is that while Tony “gets it,” we don’t (yet). Tony’s behavior throughout “Kennedy and Heidi”—from the look on his face while killing Christopher to his numbness at the funeral to the peyote trip—was a bit of a departure for him. And it seems that Tony himself was at a loss to explain the feelings that were causing this behavior. However, I think it’s clear that, by the episode’s end, Tony figured it out.

Many have noted that “The Second Coming” appeared to forget Tony’s revelation. I think that the immediacy of the crises in the episode (involving real or perceived threats to both Tony’s children) partially justifies this. There is still something large looming in Tony’s psyche that, while introduced in the desert, has yet to manifest itself in Tony’s actions.

I am certain that it will, however. The events foreshadowed by “Cleaver” are ostensibly only half-complete. The boss has killed his soldier. Sometime in the next two episodes, we will be treated to Act 2 of Cleaver—Christopher’s “revenge.” I am not talking about Christopher rising from the dead, or even about Tony being pinched, say, for his murder. Rather, I think that Christopher will be the impetus for some cataclysmic internal event that will harm Tony deeply. When Tony is forced to deal with Christopher again, I am certain that issues/emotions/grief/regret/anger surrounding his nephew will surface and give us the satisfaction we are hoping for.

I think the "answer" to the Tony we saw in this episode will be offered to us at the same time as Tony’s revelation is explained. The two, in my mind, are inextricably entwined.

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#37
Great post, SalmonSushi. I especially like your point that Cleaver itself offers the foreshadowing in some way. A couple of other posters have made similar arguments that they felt Christopher would somehow haunt Tony or be his undoing at the end.

Second Coming did disappoint me in terms of playing on the week before. Beside the fact that as soon as Tony walked in the back of Satriale's he was looking as gregarious and jocular as if he'd just won 100K at the track, the content of his "revelation" to Melfi just fell flat. (I also agree with the poster that felt Melfi was pretty stupid for not seeing that the analogy was poor respecting mothers in general.) At any rate, I could have sworn Tony's revelation had much more to do with Christopher and his father than with Livia. Guess we'll find out in due course.
Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#38
FlyOnMelfisWall wrote:I'm a sucker for underdogs. And that means that my rooting interests are always undertaken with a certain understanding of their improbability.


Fly, I know how you feel. I'm the ultimate Chicago Cubs fan, so I'm used to hopeless situations...

Seriously, I lost a lot of feeling for Tony after he showed his lack of remorse for killing Christofuh. I think we're finally seeing that Tony doesn't give much of a shit for anybody except Tony. His almost blind selfishness seems out of character for a mob boss. Even a mob boss has to put the good of the family ahead of his own interests once in a while. I've never seen Tony do that.

It seems that Chase is making Tony unredeemable to prepare us for the ultimate Tony selfishness--flipping to save his own selfish ass. Don't be surprised if Tony flips and rats out everybody. Can't you seem them going into witness protection and Carm (another terribly selfish person at the end of the day) actually driving an old beat-up Toyota Tercel and going out for dinner at McDonalds? If Tony can't keep Carm in the lifestyle she's had, then, she might really leave him.

Of course, I'm projecting; I have no damned idea what's going to happen. I heard that Edie Falco said Chase filmed three endings. What would be really cool is after Chase picks the ending he wants and the series ends, HBO runs the other two endings and let the viewers decide which one was best. However, they will probably add the additional endings to a DVD set to sell more of them... Gee, do I sound cynical?
Christofuh says: "Tony has big decisions to make, like whether or not to have that third sandwich..." :icon_razz:

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#39
FlyOnMelfisWall wrote:Second Coming did disappoint me in terms of playing on the week before. Beside the fact that as soon as Tony walked in the back of Satriale's he was looking as gregarious and jocular as if he'd just won 100K at the track, the content of his "revelation" to Melfi just fell flat. (I also agree with the poster that felt Melfi was pretty stupid for not seeing that the analogy was poor respecting mothers in general.) At any rate, I could have sworn Tony's revelation had much more to do with Christopher and his father than with Livia. Guess we'll find out in due course.


I suppose I should clarify what I mean by "revelation." I too was underwhelmed by Tony's conversation with Melfi, and personally feel that his "eureka" moment regarding motherhood did not represent the entirety of his experience in Las Vegas. I consider that insight to be merely the crumbs of a much larger revelation which, as Tony himself suggested, is presently just beyond his reach (perhaps in his subconscious).

I think that the true content of Tony's revelation will be revealed shortly through his actions. (Or Melfi will be able to peel it out of his subconscious so that we can really have a look at it.) I would argue that it did have more to do with Christopher, his father and life in general than with Livia--it just hasn't been given to us yet.

Then again, maybe Tony's Vegas revelation will turn out to be another "loose end" on the 10-year tapestry of loose ends that is The Sopranos. Maybe Tony really did lose the actual meaning of his revelation in the desert (or maybe it was all a drugged-out illusion). If this is the case, forget Tony--I may lose my emotional investment in the show and its writing. If we don't hear another word of Tony's revelation (or don't see it manifested in his actions somehow) I'm afraid the show will be guilty of some pretty weighty melodrama.

Re: Did Kennedy and Heidi Damage Your Emotional Investment i

#40
FlyOnMelfisWall wrote:De Novo, welcome back to the forum. Glad you joined us again before the end.:icon_wink:

I assume you had a problem logging into your old account. I'd be happy to merge the two so all your posts will show up under a unified screen name. Just let me know which name you prefer.
.


That would be great, thanks a lot. "De Novo" is fine -- will it be under the new password I created? I think I lost the confirmation email from my old account.

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